Operationalizing All Things Comedy with Russell Weissman

Jeff Umbro: Welcome to Podcast Perspectives. I'm your host, Jeff Umbro, founder and CEO of the Podglomerate, a company that produces, distributes, and monetizes podcasts. You can find more from us at podglomerate.com.

Today on the show we are chatting with Russell Weissman, the COO of All Things Comedy. All Things Comedy is kind of a multi-platform comedy network - I say multi-platform because the company operates in the video space, audio space, it does live tours. It was founded by Al Madrigal and Bill Burr. You may have heard of one or both of them. In essence, all of the different pieces of this company help one another, whether on the promotional side or the creative side or just the distribution vehicles.

Russell is a really interesting figure, and character, and person to talk to about this 'cause he is an early employee of All Things Comedy and helped them to build out the infrastructure. He recently was promoted to Chief Operating Officer of the business.

This was a really fun conversation to record. Russell and I have known each other for years, so it was really nice to put something on tape. I hope y'all enjoy and talk to you soon.

Russell, welcome to the show.

Russell Weissman: Thanks for having me.

Jeff Umbro: So, I usually hate this question, but I wanna start by having you kind of walk through your background because I think that you are particularly built for this industry. So where did you get your start?

Russell Weissman: Yeah. My route was more on the traditional side of things at first.

So I actually started in a temp agency - I'm gonna go way back - but I started in an temp agency that was at Sony Pictures. I landed a job in creative advertising, so trailers, TV spots, billboards. I supported the senior VP in that division and their main function was to be the producer internally and to understand working with outside vendors and cutting the creative materials based on positioning studies and data coming from the strategy team and whatnot. So it was a pretty big effort.

And from there I moved to global strategy and research with one of the heads of the studio there at Sony. And that really helped me understand how data and creative work together. I was there, in total at Sony, for about five plus years.

A friend of mine was at a startup company called Maker Studios and was very good friends with the founder and they were one of the first companies that were working with YouTubers and building original content there, and were a part of that first initial investment from YouTube.

Jeff Umbro: Russell, can you actually say what Maker Studios was, 'cause I don't wanna gloss over that. I think it was a really good comp of what we're seeing today in podcasting.

Russell Weissman: So Maker Studio was, the more traditional term would be, it was one of the first MCNs, multi-channel network, that was built specifically for creating content on YouTube, working with influencers and artists on YouTube, building their audiences there, and figuring out how to monetize and distribute content to YouTube first. And then it became other platforms in the future.

And so I was brought in to help build the Latino network called Tutele. And it was very divided into divisions. So there was a Latino network, there was a moms network, there was a kids network, there was a gaming network. So as I was there, it kind of morphed into different things.

And I was at Maker for three or four years, and then I moved into a central division that was about audience strategy. So how do you build audiences on YouTube? How can you optimize your content for the platform? How can you work with brands? So we sat in between the brands team and the creator team, and we're figuring out how do you match brands to the right content creator to find the right audience, to reach the right level of eyeballs.

So instead of focusing only on YouTube, their focus was to build audiences across other social platforms and do the same thing. So Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube were part of their main strategy. Similarly, I went into their company to sort of help build the infrastructure and be the in-between of the company and the creators and the brands, and figure out how, how do all these pieces connect.

All of those things sort of led me down the path - you know, I ended up leaving that company after about three years and stumbled into All Things Comedy. I went in just for a conversation. They had just raised some initial funding. It was only supposed to be 30 minutes. I was there for like two hours and then by the time I got home, he was trying to figure out how I could get into the company.

So I've been there now since August, 2017. So that's six years coming up on six years next month.

Jeff Umbro: All Things Comedy is fairly unique in that, on its own as a podcast network, it's fairly large. According to Podtrac, it's a top 10 network. It's also just one piece of the larger business. So what is All Things Comedy?

Russell Weissman: All Things Comedy is what I would consider a modern media company essentially. So like this is what studios are, right? It's hard to just be one thing. You have to sort of be a few things.

And so, it started as a podcast network. You know, Bill Burr and Al Madrigal, in the parking lot of the comedy store - this is the story that they've told a thousand times - they came together and knew that people were coming into the podcast space that would potentially take advantage of creators and artists because that's just the pattern that has existed through every other entertainment avenue we're aware of. So, they came together and felt that they were stronger banding together as a network, and their two shows became 10 very quickly, that became 50, that became, I think at our largest, we were at like 80 or 90 and partnered in different ways. It was more of a co-op at that time. This was before I even got to the company.

They felt that they had stronger leveraging power when speaking to brands that they couldn't take be taken advantage of when talking to distributors, things like that. So it was a podcast network first and foremost, and then it started to take shape into something more of a media company. So podcasting is still the lifeblood.

The goal was to focus on developing original content. So we were doing a lot of standup specials, which we currently still are. We've done a few for Comedy Central. We've done a lot for Netflix. We've done quite a bit like self releasing as well. And then we have two feature films that are in the can. One of them, we'll probably have an announcement fairly soon. And then beyond that, we also work with brands in like a more direct route, not just for podcasts, but we'll work with them on creating content for their own socials. We can white label how we create content for them, or we can integrate into our own distribution.

We're partnered with a lot of different shows in different ways, and I think that there are some shows that, we'll see maximum value because they lean in a little bit more as far as what services they can get or what tools they get access to, or opportunities that exist. It could be content related, it could just be how active and engaged the creator is.

A network can be as much or as little as the creator wants it to be, right? But I think it's just knowing kind of what your needs are upfront and using us as a great support piece for you. Not just production support, but like, it just depends on like what you're really looking for.

Jeff Umbro: It's really interesting the way that you guys approach this though, because I think it's, in a lot of ways, the right way to do it. And I think you've very meticulously and purposefully built the network in the way that you have, in order to support the creators in the way that you do.

But ultimately, you guys have like a carte blanche approach where you have something for everyone. You can create really valuable content for any brand that you're working with, for any creator that comes to you guys interested in making a show or or otherwise. It's kind of great 'cause you guys can actually go and like now you have a marketing vehicle built in for like the films that you're putting out

Russell Weissman: Completely. And I think that's the draw, right? So when I worked at Sony, social media was very popular and they didn't really care if artists like promoted on their socials. They thought it was good added value, so on and so forth. When I moved to Maker, it started to become this really valuable asset is owning that audience and promoting the things that you're in - to then, like traditional studios were then requiring social media posts as part of the rollout.

Jeff Umbro: I worked in book publishing and there were publishers that would take authors literally because of their Facebook or Twitter following or something.

Russell Weissman: Completely. Being your own vehicle, being your own brand, and being able to speak to the audience that you've created, the community that you've created is tremendously valuable.

So when I came into All Things Comedy there was no social presence. It was just kind of like reposting, there was kind of no point of view. And the accounts still to this day, like it's grittiness, right? It's just, it's an aggregator type of account. It has a point of view, and I think our social manager has done a really great job to kind of be that filter and be that curator of things.

There's tiers of it though. Like if you're a network and company, your point of view is very different than a show.

Jeff Umbro: A hundred percent.

Russell Weissman: And that point of view is very different than the creator as a person.

Jeff Umbro: We run into this constantly. That's our number one kind of tension point when it comes to social is like, as a company, we represent a lot of different shows that have a lot of different points of views, genres, topics, guests, hosts, et cetera. For the most part, we don't have the cohesiveness that an All Things Comedy has, so we don't necessarily have people who are coming to us for the "Podglomerate viewpoint," and thus it's very hard for us to focus on the company as a whole.

You guys don't really have that problem, it sounds like, in part, because of the work that you and the team did.

Russell Weissman: I mean, I don't think people care about our point of view, you know what I mean?

Jeff Umbro: Well, they, they come to you guys 'cause they wanna laugh, like that's a point of view.

Russell Weissman: Correct. I think our point of view though, is to not be polarizing in that way. Let the material, let the comedy, let the standup be the voice for us. But in the captions, it's trying to figure out how much you push, how much you pull, how much are you highlighting, or how much you're actually taking a stance.

I think that, like any social media account or platform, the loudest people are those that are most likely speaking negatively. And you do get positive sentiment. But for us, because we're an aggregator account in that sense, where we're trying to highlight all of our podcasts, but also the projects that they're connected to as well. So it's standup comedy, it's sketch, it's podcasts, it's things that we're being asked to promote. Because podcasting is a big part of their lives, but it's not the only part of their lives.

Jeff Umbro: I actually want to dive into that a little bit, because I think that there is a lot there. Where a traditional podcaster - and somebody who is outside of the space may not know this - but your network, and I think a lot of networks are like this, [has] a combination of owned, and operated, and licensed content. Can you walk the list through, like what that means?

Russell Weissman: Yeah, so our company initially was... sort of structured as a co-op. So most of the shows that we were partnered with are independent owner operators. And so what we would do is manage audience growth, sales, marketing, and so on.

There's a lot of things within that, right? So most of the shows in our network, they own the show. Like it's incredibly rare for us to go to a show and say, "hey, we love your show. We wanna partner with you, but you have to give us IP of your show." The goal of our partnership for most of the shows that are in the network, I would say it takes more of a services type structure where you own the show and we're gonna take a percentage rev share on any sales opportunities that come in, or other branded content initiatives that come in that we can sort of share with you.

And not everyone gets that right. I would say, how brands buy, how brands will operate and live in this space, it's very different now than it was six months ago. The type of spends are changing - so how brands are buying, what they're buying, where they're buying, what you have to include in that campaign is changing.

And that all is being dictated by, you know, macro economic issues, by performance issues. Like if YouTube changes how a show is discovered, it could absolutely impact how a link is visible in the description when you're watching the video. So it has unintended consequences whenever there is a change to a platform, audio and video.

And I think that's part of the difficulty of being a creator or a company today, is you're trying to figure out where things are headed, when you're also trying to maintain this growth trajectory that you're on. And it's like whack-a-mole, right? You're building IP and you're building value on the backs of other platforms that you have no ownership of. That's why there was this huge push for like building your own OTT platform, or apps are the big rage and then they're not, because you can't send audiences there and nobody wants to do subscription models.

So you always sort of hear these things kind of come back up and the reason is that everyone is trying to own their audience.

Jeff Umbro: Well, I think that there's two kind of points of view here. [There's the] the All Things Comedy model. The creator owns their content, All Things Comedy helps to grow and sell that content, and the creator takes a piece of it, All Things Comedy takes a piece of that.

And then the second model is All Things Comedy contributes essentially like the premium version of those services. In exchange for like some portion or all of the ownership or something.

Russell Weissman: The biggest thing that we've carved out for ourselves is that like we're very transparent in fees, in costs, in brand partnership revenue, in what the splits are on IP if we go to something bigger. And we try to have the creator - who's an important piece of the process - stay in the process. If it's your concept and we wanna partner with you and build it out and make it something more than just an idea, then you as the creator have more access.

Like that's a big focus for just All Things Comedy in general is the transparency and allowing the creator to be more involved than they would be if it went through older traditional routes.

Jeff Umbro: So if I come to you and I have a podcast that I wanna make with All Things Comedy, what does that process look like? Like pretend you guys love the idea and you wanna work with me.

Russell Weissman: So the first thing we do is, we'll bring in the operations team and the development team and we'll have a get-to-know-you conversation. We'll kind of talk through the concept. I like to see how much thought the artist or creator or post has put into a hypothetical run of show and if they have already started to target like marketing partners or launch windows on brand partnership alignment. That's the stuff that I look forward to see. Like, is this person all in, how much on of an understanding do they have of the marketplace in general?

Jeff Umbro: Yeah you need a certain amount of effort really. Like there's nothing I hate more than when someone comes to me who like clearly hasn't really thought through any of this stuff, or done like the bare minimum of research. Because it just shows like what kind of partner they might be in the future.

Russell Weissman: And that is exactly my point. It's the preparation.

When we have this kickoff meeting, it sort of sets the tone in the sense of like, what is the project and what are we getting into and what's the market viability?

And I think that that's the more complicated piece. The market now is a lot harder than it's ever been, for the audio side. For video, it's the same kind of difficult. As these platforms become more mature and the content recommendation and the content association becomes better, then you'll be able to find your community a little bit easier. We're just not there yet.

So in that pitch meeting like those are the things that we sort of talk through and try to figure out. Our development team will wanna lean in and really get into the weeds on helping structure the show and talk to creative. We'll try to do a pilot run and then if things feel like they're in a good place, we'll kind of work backwards. We'll have a target date of when we would wanna release and then work backwards and figure out like what are the exact sort of tenfold dates that we need to hit in order to make sure that we have all of the assets in place to hit that launch window.

Then you have to work on that marketing plan and the marketing plan could be just as complex as trying to put the actual content together. Because you are marrying things, trying to identify the audiences you're trying to target, and then create some type of formula that X amount of impressions might yield a certain conversion rate. And then can you retain that conversion? Or can you retain that audience that comes back and on which platform?

And it's not like you just launch it and then it's out there and you're good. There's this programming strategy and there's a marketing strategy that you sort of try to stick to because you can have this huge race out of the gate, but that doesn't mean that that's gonna give you that consistency, right?

Like you have to think of: who are my biggest guests? Who are the guests that like are great but aren't as well known. So you have, you're thinking like peaks and valleys - your peak is your biggest performing episodes, your valleys are lower performing episodes. How can you continue to build on that and put a strategic calendar together.

Jeff Umbro: I'm so curious actually, 'cause I think the point you're making is that it's a never ending race to continue to market a show.

My counterpoint to that is that there are some people, the royals, like Meghan Markle Obama with his show, several other celebrity podcasts, the thinking goes: you don't really have to do much. Like if you build it, they will come. And that's where a lot of these different organizations have gotten into so much trouble over the years.

I am so curious what you think of that and what you've seen with somebody like a Bill Burr who is basically a household name, like maybe not Barack Obama, but people know Bill.

Russell Weissman: Yeah. I cannot speak for Bill and his personal experiences, but I can tell you, even before coming to All Things Comedy, that was still the thinking on every platform that I've ever worked [with]. It's always been: they're super famous, the audiences will follow. And I think that's an edge case.

I think that there are some people who absolutely fall into that bucket and it doesn't matter what they do. Like honestly, Terry Cruz, perfect example of that, right? I worked with his YouTube channel back in the day - anything he did would hit gold and everything that he does, people just eat up on every platform.

When you look at those deals that a platform has made with like the Obamas and so on and so forth, I think the difference is is that, it's not understanding what the actual level of success is. Like really showcasing, having a very clear goal as to like, this is what success is for us. And I think for a platform like Spotify, Amazon, Sirius and, iHeart, whatever it is, it's signups. And it's not just signups, it's retention. But, I also think within that it's how do you move people who are not podcast consumers in that marketplace and market to them in platform to move them into consuming more podcast content in your platform?

Do I think artists, because they're famous, can command audiences? Sure. Like that argument exists and there are some that can, but I would say that like most don't jump platforms. Unless you're super crazy famous.

Like I think someone like Bill - and I will say this about Bill - I know how hard he works. Like I just see it from a distance of how consistent he is and how dedicated he is to put out two shows a week, two podcasts a week, even while his touring is going crazy. And it's not that he is popular because he's famous, he has put in the work.

Smartless is a much better example of like, those are three very famous, very appealing artists, and their show during Covid just flew like a rocket ship, and continues to soar.

Jeff Umbro: I think you, you nailed it 'cause even the Smartless guys, they're putting in the time, the energy, the work... Like none of us know what is true and what's not with this, but like the situation with Harry and Spotify - there's some reporting saying basically that they didn't produce anything and I don't know what happened. But I am very against the idea of like finding somebody with a massive platform and giving them a podcast because they have that without also having the underlying idea behind it.

So All Things Comedy is like a fairly unique company in a million ways, but it is also a comedy podcast network, and comedy has traditionally been a massive section of the podcast ecosystem. Some of the first big podcasts were from comedians. To this day, we still see comedy podcasts kind of breaking out, at least word of mouth-wise, more frequently than others.

Although there is a really interesting stat that of the top 400 something shows, only 2% of them are from comedians. Yet I feel like there's an inordinate amount of like people who talk through kind of word of mouth recommendations for comedy podcasts.

So I guess I wanted to ask like what role does All Things Comedy play within that ecosystem? Is there anything different from a comedy network than from like a traditional podcast network? And you know this because you worked with Maker Studio and you've kind of seen like all the different verticals, like what do you have to consider when it comes to production, IP, ad sales, all that stuff.

Russell Weissman: So I think that they're all very independent of each other, those things. They operate independently, but they can be very closely entwined.

In the top 100. You do have a lot of, let's say comedians, or comedy-type podcasts, or even true crime that have comedians as hosts.

And so what do we consider as just a network when we're looking through these things? I think that you're spot on and people always talk about comedy or comedians in the word of mouth recommendations of things, which is hard to quantify. The point of that is that I think that comedians and hosts that are on comedy shows are in a way more relatable. And that's why you get a lot of word of mouth, is because being able to sort of remove someone from their day to day, and make them laugh, and they think it's funny, whether it's just a conversation or it's just a series of jokes.

Someone like Bill who can just speak into a microphone and everyone listens, is just, it amazes me. It's

Jeff Umbro: remarkable that he can do that. He goes for like two hours every time.

Russell Weissman: The point is that every show, even though it feels the same, is kind of is unique in itself and can find audiences, whether it's 500 people or 500,000 people. It's just about catching people where they are consuming content and trying to build some type of community in the hopes that you can continue to attract small percentages of audiences within each of those ecosystems, because one of them is gonna find faster traction.

And that all impacts the sales side too, is like sales. People who are engaging and love their products and know how to speak to their audiences.

Jeff Umbro: What role does this play in like a general comedian's life? I know it's different for everybody, but I imagine that a general comedian in 2023 has social media, is on tour, has records that they're putting out, standup specials if they're successful... And then a lot of them also have podcasts, and I know just from experience that some of that, like, the podcast is a way for them to kind of get access to people for the future. Sometimes it's to make ad sales money. Like sometimes they want to use this as like a piece of derivative property for the future.

How do you guys see that?

Russell Weissman: So, I mean, you hit all of my main points. Depending on where the artist is in the trajectory of their career and their life, those things in the hierarchy of importance move around. I think the ultimate goal - and this is I think where a lot of our founders had started, you know Al as well - they created a podcast to help sell tickets to their live shows. Tell people where you are. When you are an artist that sells in live, that really wants to do theater shows, or is trying to promote right live shows that they're doing, when you are in TV and film and you just wanna also interview the people that you're working with there too.

Like the podcast... it becomes a vehicle for additional conversations that can be in long form, but also cut down to short form. So you're recording it one time, but you can get a hundred pieces of content from that and share that across a variety of platforms.

So how do we look at that? We look at that as like we as All Things Comedy. The mission statement is what can we do to help these artists grow and find their audiences and monetize them. Right? That sounds really bad to say it in that way, but more, how can you reach audiences but maintain a living? Like this is part of your livelihood.

Jeff Umbro: It's kind of the machine these days, for better or worse.

Russell Weissman: Completely. And, the podcast becomes a vehicle to promote themselves, but also talk about things that, when they're on stage, they may not be able to talk about. But it also becomes material for them. I think that a lot of comedians use their podcast to work out things. Like I've heard things on shows that I've then seen them on stage, and I can see the evolution of that material. And it's fascinating.

For us, you want to have all of those things because, if one goes away, you at least have the others that you can depend on. When Covid hit, live touring ended, what were people doing? They were podcasting. 'Cause they needed to talk to someone. They needed to be in front of people. They needed to have that connectivity that they couldn't get because they weren't on stage.

So as a creator or as a company, those are the things that you have to look at. To diversify is to try to mitigate risk in the market and have these different pieces run, and one might be more successful than the other other, but it helps you if one of them goes away all of a sudden.

Jeff Umbro: Who are some of All Thing Comedy's competitors?

Russell Weissman: That's a good question. I would say there's not a one-to-one comparison. Like there's no one that I would say like, yep, that is a hundred percent someone that we are aligned with on everything in the sense of, the podcast side, we compete for all of our shows, in motion picture and tv, we get things green lit and they don't, or they get something green lit and we don't. It doesn't necessarily work in that way.

Podcasting is going through a different phase. It all of a sudden was the darling for like a few years there. And it was like the Wild West and there wasn't a lot of tech to back up a lot of the brand sales or distribution. But those platforms are getting better. Like the data is getting better. The tools you have access to are getting better. Which is sort of weeding out people who are bad actors, it's weeding out those people who aren't able to monetize their shows effectively, companies are not able to adapt and change, and there's been a lot that have kind of closed their doors in the last like six months. And that's a lot that has to do with a lot of like macroeconomic issues.

So, Who are our direct competitors? I would say that there's not one that sort of checks that box. I would say that like there aren't that many comedy focused networks. But there were a couple and we were actually like very good friends with them. We were always in direct competition because if you're working with a show, a partnered show as a service-based partnership, where we're just doing sales and marketing, then everyone sort of checks that box as like can compete with you on those deals.

But we still market and collaborate with other networks because it's the only way that you can effectively grow a show is collaboration.

Jeff Umbro: So you guys are operating pretty heavily in like the video space on YouTube in addition to, like, it sounds like you're everywhere. You used "multi-platform" before and I think that's the perfect explanation of like who you are and what you guys do. But just to give our listeners a sense of like your scale, how many downloads, or streams, or whatever you want to call it, are you guys generally doing on audio and then on video? 'Cause I'm just curious how video is competing in general.

Russell Weissman: Yeah, it can ebb and flow, right? Like video, it's really YouTube, right? Audio is very fragmented depending on the consumer. If it's an Apple device, they're mostly on Apple podcasts or like Spotify in general, and Samsung devices, so on and so forth. So it's a more fragmented system there.

So, It's a little hard to sort of give you the whole, holistic picture. Also, because like Spotify now is doing video and audio fully, like tightly wound together. So for us, I don't necessarily wanna give like a full number, but I can definitely say that like we're... on the audio side we're averaging plus or minus, like in the teens per month.

And so that's just the download side. Impressions-wise, when you look at like programmatic, you're looking at a five multiple or eight multiple, depending on how many spots you have and how long the shows are.

And then on the video side, it's not equal to yet. I would say it's probably like another 40%, maybe 50% of whatever we're doing. But it's a hard number to quantify on the video side as well, because some creators, it's not only a podcast channel, it's also more than that.

Jeff Umbro: Well, congrats though. Those are huge numbers and it's very cool to see. Because in a lot of ways you guys have like... you've raised capital, like you have famous founders, but also the network feels indie, you know, for the little guy, which makes me happy.

Russell Weissman: Yeah. Well, and that initial funding was just seed too. It wasn't necessarily like a full raise so it definitely has a more indie feel. And our founders are still very actively involved. I mean, that's something where, I've worked for a lot of creator companies before, and they are the most actively involved and also like the most generous with their time. And I'm excited to just continue to help grow the infrastructure and find new ways to like reach audiences.

I think like media and entertainment is becoming something very different and we can see that it's heading in this direction for a while, but I think the pendulum is sort of shifting in that direction a lot faster than I think most anticipated. And it's kind of exciting to be at the beginning of that.

Jeff Umbro: Well, Russell, thank you so much for joining us. Where, where can our listeners find you?

Russell Weissman: All Things Comedy accounts, on all platforms, or ATC for short. Me personally, you can hit me up on LinkedIn.

Jeff Umbro: Thanks again to Russell Weissman for joining me on this episode of Podcast Perspectives. Have questions, tips, or podcast recommendations? You can follow me on all of the socials at Jeff Umbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of the Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing, distributing, or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at podglomerate.com, shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com, or follow us on all social platforms @podglomerate. Thank you to Chris Boniello, Henry Lavoie, and Jordan Aaron for producing this show. And also to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Matt Keeley, Annabella Pena, and a special thank you to Dan Christo.

Thank you all for listening, and I will catch you next week.