AdLarge Media CEO Cathy Csukas on Ad Tech and Women in Audio

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff Umbro: Today on Podcast Perspectives, we are joined by Cathy Csukas, CEO and co-founder of AdLarge Media. 

If you could give one piece of advice to a new podcast at advertising, what would it be?

Cathy Csukas: Make sure that you're always associating with brands that feel right for you because your audience and the brand, everyone will know if you don't truly believe it.

Jeff Umbro: AdLarge is an interesting company servicing monetization clients for terrestrial radio, digital audio, and podcasting. Since co-founding AdLarge in 2011, Cathy has helped shape how advertisers, networks, and creators navigate the ever-changing world of podcast and digital audio monetization. 

Welcome to the show, Cathy.

Cathy Csukas: Thank you, Jeff. I'm excited to be here.

Jeff Umbro: Can you walk us through your early career and how you got started in audio?

Cathy Csukas: Oh my goodness. That's a long story. I'll try and make it brief. I actually come from the accounting finance side of the world. Went to school, have an accounting degree, and went into public accounting and found myself working for a small media company and broadcast radio. It was a network radio company, and I helped the two entrepreneurs sell their business and was working to make an exit.

And I got asked to come into sales management and work for the head of sales and be the number two to run the national sales team, and it was probably a $75 million company at that time. What ended up happening is she quickly exited to move into the first digital boom that was going on in the dot com era.

I'm dating myself a little bit here. I quickly found myself running a national sales team as number one. And it was actually quite successful. And that was where I got into audio. It was a network radio company and that's where I learned everything about the network radio industry and my passion for audio.

And it just kind of evolved from there.

Jeff Umbro: What actually inspired you to launch AdLarge? Like what was the gap in the market that you saw?

Cathy Csukas: Well, I'd spent many years, running sales team and then leading sales companies in the network radio space, and there was a lot of consolidation that was going on, and it was interesting. A lot of businesses were not doing well and they were all trying to optimize for the bottom line, and they didn't have the ability to really focus on the future.

They were focusing on things that weren't gonna take them out many years, and it was so frustrating that they really needed to be working on transformative things. And look, we still represent a large network radio portfolio, and I firmly believe in network radio as well as part of our ecosystem because the US reach is tremendous.

And so it was really about the companies, um, that were in network radio, that were in traditional and. Not having the ability to really transform themselves into digital companies. And so my co-founder and I, we had this vision that we could start a business, a different type of business. We could be an audio company and that we could service creators across the different audio channels and that we'd be able to sell to brands and agencies across these channels.

That was back a ways when we started AdLarge, and it's taken a while. The reality is it comes true. The buyers that I've known for many, many years, all the way back to network radio days, are buying digital audio along with traditional broadcast radio today. And the same advertisers that we worked with many years ago have shifted budgets into different channels of audio and.

Really think about it very holistically. And so it's really, it's a really nice moment of validation to know that the concept was correct. It took a while to get there, but it certainly is true, and I believe it gives us a real advantage because we're purists on audio, you know, from the original days. And we've evolved now as the industry has evolved, right?

You have so many other channels that you move into, but we've been an audio first company.

Jeff Umbro: That's radio. It's on demand audio, it's podcasting. Is there another bucket there that I'm missing?

Cathy Csukas: No that would, that would be a good way to summarize it.

Jeff Umbro: So what kinds of challenges did you face, like early on?

Cathy Csukas: The early on challenge was knowing that we were in early and that we had to spend resources and, and time and investment money to build discipline in marketplaces that weren't mature and there wasn't a lot of budget to be had at the time, and so it was a challenge to be in all three places and to really.

Build disciplines across those challenges and be an expert in not just selling, but understanding those channels and the measurement and you know, how, how it was building and evolving. So it was hard. It was hard to do all three at once, but it was certainly worth it.

Jeff Umbro: There's a layer of administrative work of education that goes into teaching people how to use these different platforms and like what their expectations should be. Do you kind of see any pivotal moments over the course of AdLarge’s last nearly 15 years that you can point to as just like breakthroughs for you?

Cathy Csukas: I mean, first I'll say is we've always kind of been curious and leaders in the space and wanting to always be where it was going. You know, moved on to Megaphone pretty early on. Picked Boostr as the OMS system that most of the industry works with now early on, supporter of flight. I think that has given us like a DNA, like an ethos where we're always looking to evolve and grow with where we see the industry is moving.

The other area, what I really think gave us tremendous perspective is when we had the, the privilege and the honor to work with Ashley Flowers and the Crime Junkie show, the Audiochuck Network for nearly four years. We did an incredible job and watched her grow an incredible content, business and distribution.

And we were a partner there alongside her, helping her build her business. And that's what we do. We build businesses, but what we were able to do is really drive a tremendous monetization engine for her and build a tremendous amount of audio relationships. And what did that really teach us? It taught us that women were powerful consumers.

They were highly engaged in podcasting. They were in demand from the brands, and they were really interested in this space. So I think that was a really important part of how we got to our next steps, which is the third thing that we've done is when we launched fwd. It was a vision and a strategy that we as a team came together with and we imagined what is the next step of being a platform and what would we stand for, and who would we support and service, and what were the things that we needed to build to really be able to be successful, not just for ourselves, but also all the creators and all the brands.

Jeff Umbro: Could you give a snapshot for our listeners of where you guys are, like, share whatever you're comfortable with, but like number of employees, total revenue, number of shows you guys work with?

Cathy Csukas: I mean, we are a private company, so I'll give you some stats. We're roughly about 30 employees supporting the infrastructure across the AdLarge and the fwd. platform. We launched the platform about a year and a half ago. We have 75 plus creators in the platform today. We are over 12 million monthly downloads and growing.

And from a revenue perspective, because I figured you would ask me that question. What, what would be a good thing to share with you? I could tell you that we've had six quarters of quarter over quarter growth on a revenue basis. And we're up year over year, 30% year to date.

Jeff Umbro: And just to really underline this, your organization provides publishers and podcasters with an apparatus to sell advertising on their shows and make money based on what they're putting out in the world.

Cathy Csukas: Yeah, I mean, we think of ourselves, you know, fwd. first as 75 creators. AdLarge is 250 in total. But fwd. is the, the main podcast platform that we're focused on, where it's women's voices that are leading the conversation. Really, we think about it holistically. We want the creators to, as part of our content strategy, be part of the platform and be part of a creator community, and we wanna be able to drive revenue and monetization for them, but also help them build their brands in different ways and create new activations and revenue streams for them.

Jeff Umbro: And how do you decide, like what's a good fit for the network, either fwd. or AdLarge as a whole?

Cathy Csukas: So with fwd., it's female first host, female targeted. We look for strong voices that are making an impact in a certain topic. Really hard workers because it's hard work and it's a marathon and engagement, like it's really important to see a lot of engagement in their community. I think that's a pillar that we all look for when we decide to partner with new shows, right?

An engagement in a topic, or a host or a brand. I think it's really important and helps build audiences for podcasting and compassion. I mean just passion on topic is the most important thing.

Jeff Umbro: So when it comes to balancing the needs of your advertisers and the needs of your creators, like, do you, are there any expectations or needs that you have to pay attention to there?

Cathy Csukas: Well, so which side are you, are you asking? Because they're both my clients and they're both incredibly important and so that's part of the beauty of the model that we've built, being focused on certain content pillars and focused on a certain target audience, is we make some things easier. Focused and very mission driven.

If you are a brand or you're an agency and you're thinking women, you're naturally gonna be thinking about the fwd. network.

Jeff Umbro: We worked with Podcast Nation for a few years by the way.

Cathy Csukas: They're wonderful.

Jeff Umbro: They're the best. And I was blown away though by how successful they were at selling to their target audience and the ways in which they were able to reach them. I think you have carved out like an important niche, but also like, you know, potentially a very profitable one too.

Cathy Csukas: Powerful. I mean, it's really powerful. I mean, women control 85% of the spending power. I mean, that's an incredible stat. Last week, Edison came out with new research, right? So you can see that women are acting faster or in a bigger way, right? 75% of women are responding to podcast ads after they hear them. I mean, that's an incredible stat.

So you combine that with the spending power, the influence that the podcast creators have with their audiences is tremendous.

Jeff Umbro: I moved in with my fiance a few years ago and I feel like half my house is now just like a walking podcast ad, and a lot of it's me too. I've been wearing Allbirds for a decade.

Cathy Csukas: That's amazing.

Jeff Umbro: It has staying power and it works really well.

Cathy Csukas: I wanna go back to your question just a little bit. I mean, for the brands and the advertisers, like it's, so much of it is about them. They set the stage, their goals, their KPIs, the level of accountability, the level of communication we can offer them. You know, so many different tactics of how they can work with us, but ultimately they're driving it.

And our job is really to find the right creators to flourish with these brands and not force anything.

Jeff Umbro: What are the metrics that you and or like these buyers are paying most attention to when it comes to these ads? We can assume that the target niche is gonna be a fit for these products, but like how are they tracking success? Like what KPIs are they looking at? What are the metrics like? How do you think about that?

Cathy Csukas: There's so many different types of buys that are happening now, so it's hard to answer that really in one question. But I mean, if we just think about traditional performance based buying, I mean third party measurement, they're looking for a return, they're looking for a certain call to action, and you know, we are looking to deliver our impressions to meet their KPIs, to perfect our creators, reads and how we're delivering or how we're targeting, right? Because in other cases, we're doing targeted campaigns where we're delivering contextually targeted networks, and it's not really about the host's voice or, or the particular host in that case, but it's, it's being sold on a contextual basis.

Jeff Umbro: I love that personally. Like, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I kind of hope the industry goes in that direction. I hope it's a hybrid approach of like a lot of different kinds of ad buys, but I, I just find that to be much more cost effective on the administrative side. I don't think that it always works as well as a like one-to-one show buy with a host endorsed read, but it can work very effectively.

Cathy Csukas: So I would say that we're seeing it work very successfully. Everybody that has worked with us in that sense has re, you know, has returned or the return campaigns quarter over quarter. So we are seeing it working and I think the success of it is in the, the targeting, the where you're targeting and how you're targeting.

Being able to manage those campaigns to improve upon them as they are delivering, to make sure that we're delivering as effectively as possible. I also wanna point out just as another strategy, something that we're doing successfully now as we've been working to bring our creators voices into targeted network buys.

So if for example, someone is interested in, you know, reaching a health and wellness listener, or in those topics, we can bring Tamsen’s voice from her podcast into the creative that's used across that targeted buy, and we find that very effective and it's really a win for everybody because it becomes like a mini content moment in the right environment, and also builds awareness for Tamsen and for her show as well.

Jeff Umbro: And to your point, like that wouldn't work if you threw that in like the Joe Rogan show. I know that's a tired example, but if you're really thoughtful about where it does go, then it can be incredibly effective.

Cathy Csukas: That's why I was saying like there is no one answer to your question before. Because it really depends on what you're trying to achieve. At this point, I think this is one of the things that surprises me most about this industry, like how we sold five years ago, or even two years ago, or even last. Like it just keeps evolving and we just keep adding to our capabilities and makes it interesting and a lot of fun

Jeff Umbro: I agree.

Cathy Csukas: If you're a curious person, right?

Jeff Umbro: Well, it's exhausting and fun. My next question relates to this. It's actually like, where do you think it's gonna be in a year or two years, or five years from now? Are there other things or types of ad reads that you're seeing people ask for nowadays that are like the next iteration of what we've seen change over the last few years?

Cathy Csukas: I mean, I think there's a lot of changes that we'll see. I mean, I do think AI for creative will become more common. I do think that programmatic will be a bigger part of the industry as well. And so, you know, that's a space where I spend time really studying and learning and making sure that we're in the right place and that we're going to market in the most optimized way to drive revenue.

But it's not for everyone. Not everyone's gonna be able to navigate that in their setup. So I think that's a space that we're spending some time trying to be prepared for as budgets continue to increase there. And then also I think from an ad type, I mean we're selling video ads. We're selling newsletters, we're selling social integrations, we're selling events.

I mean, it's really turning into an omnichannel sale and you know, we're doing that now and I just think that it continues to grow through time.

Jeff Umbro: Has that been a big challenge for you? Selling event advertising is a lot more work than plugging a campaign into a CMS. You have to actually figure out the physical element of that. Was that a learning curve?

Cathy Csukas: And we're still learning. I mean, it's what we're preparing for now. But again, I'm gonna revert back to our model of the fwd. network. I mean, it's all a red thread, it's all aligned, and it just keeps building what's possible. As we build our content pillars underneath fwd. and we build creator communities as part of our wellness category or true crime content, we're building creators and communities and they're supporting one another.

And then we can only just imagine all the ways that we can keep building activations and events for these creators, you know, through the fwd. platform. And it's pretty exciting.

Jeff Umbro: Why did you choose to launch the fwd. network?

Cathy Csukas: It's really personal for me as a woman who's, you know, a CEO and a founder in launching AdLarge, I don't think I actually understood that it was unique that there weren't that many women co-founders or founders. And it wasn't until later in life or you know, later into this journey in AdLarge that I was like, wow, there actually isn't that many women that are doing this at this level. 

I started digging in deeper and deeper, and I've learned so much just about how women need the support creating community and ways to elevate women's voices. I mean, it's just, it's very personal. Like we're building successful businesses that are women led.

We're telling impactful stories to women's audiences. It's just part of who I am. It's just naturally happened that this is where I'm passionate. I have a team that's largely, women led and, and women run. We're probably about 70 to 75% women, which is incredible. And it didn't happen with, like, I never said, oh, I only wanna hire women. It just happened. 

It just naturally happened that people gravitated towards my leadership. They gravitated towards the company that we were building, what we stood for. Then fwd. has really just amplified the outreach in that sense. Like there's just so many wonderful people that are out there that I would love to partner with in so many different ways.

Jeff Umbro: When it comes to partnership with the fwd. network. What does that look like? Is it, is it a different kind of partnership than what a traditional AdLarge client would look like?

Cathy Csukas: I mean, they're all different. Every single, you know, deal is different. It depends on the level of creator content that you're working with. Like some, some folks are brand new and they're just launching and they need different types of support than somebody else with a major show, you know, with a very large distribution and audience.

So we really, we craft and customize depending on the needs and the circumstances. Sometimes people need help with production. Sometimes they need more help with marketing or with distribution, or they need help with identifying a producer, or sometimes they really just want the monetization engine. So depending on those elements, you can imagine that the deal structure really evolves and, you know, is fluid depending on, you know, what we're gonna be doing with them.

Jeff Umbro: Part of the reason I'm asking is, because I'm curious, when you're structuring these deals, like when you have the, like bigger players, like the SiriusXMs, the iHearts of the world, oftentimes a distribution or a sales contract comes associated with some, you know, marketing lever or production help or something.

So it sounds like you're starting to do that in the instances where, where it makes sense. Is that right?

Cathy Csukas: Yep. No, I think that's an absolutely correct statement. We do support when it makes sense for the business. Yes, absolutely.

Jeff Umbro: And how's it going so far? Like, are, do you have any metrics that you're tracking and like showing how successful or not it's been?

Cathy Csukas: We've been growing quarter over quarter.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah.

Cathy Csukas: We're up year over year and you know, we're working to continue to build the, what we call our owned and operated, which are exclusive deals,

Jeff Umbro: Yep.

Cathy Csukas: in a very thoughtful way. But we're also scaling our reach extension platform, which is called fwd. Plus. It's where we work with publishers in a non-exclusive manner.

We include their fwd. targeted audiences as part of our reach extension. And so we're not selling host reads and we're not placing ads in their show directly, but we're selling doing an audience sale. Basically what that gives us is the ability to have a reach extension.

Jeff Umbro: You would sign the Podglomerate for  fwd. Plus and if you're targeting female listeners in California, you could add a campaign to reach all of our female listeners in California.

Cathy Csukas: Right.

Jeff Umbro: So you charge more. We get a little clip of that and you're able to offer the brands like further extension on, on their ads.

Cathy Csukas: That's exactly correct. And so it would be for female audiences and we would, you know, use it for a fwd. targeted network or for a contextual, targeted campaign or you know, a specific campaign that's got a lot of targeting metrics. So if when we're looking to expand our reach, absolutely.

Jeff Umbro: How much of the 12 million downloads a month come from the extension versus what is native to like AdLarge?

Cathy Csukas: None of it. 12 million plus is all O&O. That's all direct to O&O. Yeah. So the extension is extremely vast.

Jeff Umbro: So let's transition to technology

Cathy Csukas: Okay.

Jeff Umbro: Because I know you, you're one of my favorite thinkers in podcast tech because you experiment with everything. What are a couple of the platforms that are really exciting to you today?

Cathy Csukas: Flightpath has been a partner of mine early on, you know, adopter and I think Sean has done an incredible job building a platform there where, you know, it's a tool that we rely on on a regular basis to optimize our campaigns. It's predictive ad delivery and so we just do a better job. It just comes out correct, like accurate.

Jeff Umbro: Or you know, if it won't come out correct, you know, ahead of time.

Cathy Csukas: Yeah, and you have the opportunity to, to, you know, optimize, to correct, to, to come up with another strategy. And you're not dealing with, you know, unhappy clients and situations, you know, after the fact. And he's developing his predictive delivery and forecasting for YouTube. So I think that's exciting because that's a space where we could get predictive delivery.

You know, we recently, actually today, I signed a contract with NumberEight. They're a data company, a data research company, and they have analyzed our O&O portfolio and they're able to tell us who our audience is in a different way, and we're able to use that modeling to then find those audiences.

Our reach extension, so when we sell out on our favorite show, we can take the voice and we could use it to extend into our fwd. plus audience and continue to sell for that creator and sell for that brand, and provide more reach with a similar audience or the actual audience.

Jeff Umbro: So you basically have built an extension network that has some pretty realistic demographics so you can target for higher conversion rate. And you can just stretch this as much as you need and bring it back when you don't?

Cathy Csukas: That's exactly right. And so we've had a problem this year where we've been selling all our O&O inventory, so…

Jeff Umbro: Oh, wow. How awful.

Cathy Csukas: So having this reach extension has been tremendous. And you know, and the marketplace loves it, and there's different ways that you can, you know, access it or you could just, you know, we could do traditional, you know,  O&O sale and, and work with a host, and we love doing that. And we can customize sponsorships and do different things.

So we just think about it as building layers. Opportunities and just different ways of working with agencies. They have so many different clients, so many different types of budgets, and a lot of the ways agencies are set up now, right? Like they have a performance base, they have a programmatic, they have a digital team, and they think about it differently, and we wanna have all those conversations.

Jeff Umbro: The industry at large is seeing a lot of folks who are starting to experiment with the different tiers of ad sales. So you have direct sales as the highest tier, and if it's like a bigger show, then you can make a lot of money and it's a great experience. And then for the smaller shows it's more programmatic and there's a whole world of things in between the two.

Would you say that's accurate? Is that kind of what you're seeing where you're able to like give programmatic to whoever wants it, but like is there a threshold in which it actually makes sense to do more of a direct sale engagement with folks?

Cathy Csukas: What we're trying to solve for is with the fwd. network is to be able to work with as many of those tiers in a highly optimized way. And so absolutely top shows, right? It's a lot of direct business. Mostly direct business driving, you know, a premium advertiser experience. I think the middle tier, you know, should absolutely be the same exact thing and, and we are building for a world where we can scale and maintain our culture and our service.

And our authenticity in the, you know, the purest form, but also be able to scale and drive that revenue. Like that's what we're trying to solve for. And honestly, we have some, some small shows and they're the greatest, they're hard workers. They're providing tremendous results for brands and they have highly engaged audiences.

So we don't think about it necessarily, like, we don't want a small show, we don't want this show, or we don't want like that. Is it fitting in our ethos? Is it part of our content pillars? Do they hit our targets of what we're looking for with a creator? And then how can we optimize their different channels of activation?

Like so, for example, we have one particular show where it's a fairly small podcast. But there's three co-hosts that are – it's such highly engaged audience across LinkedIn, YouTube, all the socials. They have a massive reach, massive audience. And we go to market and we sell a sponsorship, and the podcast is the smallest portion of it.

And this is a show that's chronically sold out and hard to get into, but we think about them holistically, their entire footprint and their entire reach.

Jeff Umbro: We have a show that we've been working with for six or seven years at this point. It's been sold out since like three months after we signed them. But it's a very tiny show. You know, it does like 10 or 20 thousand downloads a month. So they launched a newsletter and now we sell that.

Cathy Csukas: Exactly.

Jeff Umbro: They have a website and we sell banner ads there.

And like I totally buy into your entire thesis. I completely agree with it. And also there are worlds where it just doesn't make sense, like administratively to work on certain shows if they're too small. the thing that I think a lot of publishers and networks as a whole like run into often.

Is there a moment where you do have to cross like a threshold for it to make sense? And realistically, I think the answer to that is yes, but also anybody can grow into what they need to with a smart partner like you guys.

Cathy Csukas: I think that's so true. I mean, there's definitely creators who, you know, we've said, okay, it's not the right fit. You know, we've loved working together. But you know, they need something different. And you know, I mean, everyone needs a, a different answer sometimes, but it's really about, you know, the size of the show and, and how much support they need and how hard are they willing to commit to the growth of it, and to work on, you know, different, different sides of their brands to build.

So I agree with you and it's okay. Like it's okay if it's not the right fit. Like I think we all do our best to make sure that there's good personality, connection and that you just, I don't know, my kids would say your vibe in, right? 

Jeff Umbro: The vibe is important.

Cathy Csukas: The vibe is correct. Yeah.

Jeff Umbro: Great segue into my next question. Podcast advertising has become a lot more competitive. What do you tell new podcasters about trying to set expectations for them?

Cathy Csukas: You know, we mostly focus on how long the journey can be and the different aspects of the work that needs to go into to build a brand and podcasting, right? It used to be just audio. Now it's audio and it's video, and it's all the socials. And you know, all the different ways that you can work to build your brand.

There's a lot of touch points that go into that. And so I know you asked about advertising, I think, I think the more challenging part for a creator is having the creator have the right expectations as to how long it could take to grow a show.

Jeff Umbro: A big part of the Podglomerate business is doing audience growth, and we get a lot of emails a dozen a week on, on average for people who want us to like help them grow their shows and like of those dozen, ten of them are gonna be people who have a hundred listeners and like a thousand dollars budget.

They don't ever have any KPIs. They just say something along the lines of like, I want to get to the point where I can monetize. And that's always a tough conversation because you know somebody somewhere put blood, sweat, and tears into that.

Cathy Csukas: I think it's a really important thing to share is that it's a hard part of the industry. We're driving a lot of revenue for our partners. We're looking to scale our fwd. shows, our exclusive deals because we're driving a lot of revenue. So I'm not necessarily in a situation where I feel that creators are unhappy with the monetization that we're doing. We personally are always striving to do more and continue to optimize, you know, to sell as many impressions as possible and keep driving, you know, the CPM and, and work with, you know, the best matching brands with creators. So it's always evolving.

It's always improving. I think the harder part is managing expectations of size, growth to value.

Jeff Umbro: That just becomes a math problem at a certain point.

Cathy Csukas: That's right.

Jeff Umbro: I have always been in awe of you and the company and the culture that you've been able to build. So how do you build a culture that fosters innovation and growth? There are 30 people at your company, like I, I talked to you and I know that you are brilliant in everything that you do.

How do you make sure that that goes through the whole organization?

Cathy Csukas: I've always been a really hard worker. I think my team sees me as a hard worker. Like I'm in it with them. I'm very passionate about my beliefs and I lead with strong conviction, but yet at the same time, I'm super curious and I wanna learn all the time. So I'm always asking questions and I'm always learning from my team.

And so, you know, we could have some passionate conversations of, of disagreement. But they know that if they firmly believe something that, that I'll respect their position and. We work together to solve. I'm gonna say, here's the last thing. Vulnerability. I'm an extremely vulnerable leader. I'm very direct.

I'm very honest. I'm not afraid to just be, you know, just very direct about what the truth is. But I'm also just vulnerable and, and I will be accountable for things and also call somebody on something. So, I don't know. I mean, I'm incredibly proud of my team and I feel really honored and privileged to work with all of them.

That, and, and I hope they know that. I try to tell them that regularly. I mean, they're smart, just genius group of people, and many of them have been with me a long time, and there's just no greater honor.

Jeff Umbro: Well then that's, that's one of the reasons I noticed it is because you've had a lot of people there for like years and years at this

Cathy Csukas: I have, it's one of the proudest things I can say about my career and in leadership, and it means a lot to me. So thank you.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you for joining the show and I look forward to our next conversation.

Cathy Csukas: Okay. Sounds great. Thanks Jeff. Appreciate it.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you so much to Cathy Csukas for joining us on Podcast Perspectives. You can find her online at AdLarge.com or on LinkedIn at Cathy Csukas.

For more podcast related news, info, and takes, you can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff Umbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of The Podglomerate.

If you're looking for help producing, marketing, or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at Podglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com, or follow us on all socials at @podglomeratepods. 

This episode was produced by Chris Boniello, and myself, Jeff Umbro. This episode was edited and mixed by Chris Boniello. And thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, and Morgan Swift. And a special thank you to Dan Christo. 

Thank you for listening and I'll catch you all in a few weeks.