Cloud10 Media CEO Sim Sarna on Building a Powerhouse Network

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff Umbro: Today on Podcast Perspectives, we're joined by Sim Sarna, founder and CEO of Cloud10 Media.

Sim Sarna: Just because you have a good show or a show that people like or a few people like, doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna be a massive success.

Jeff Umbro: What's one myth about the podcast business?

Sim Sarna: That you can just push a button and all of a sudden you have tons and tons of ads and host-read ads that pay enough money.

Jeff Umbro: We'll talk about what's changed in the podcast sales landscape and how Cloud10 is adapting and thriving in today's market. Welcome to the show Sim.

Sim Sarna: Thank you so much, Jeff. It's an honor to be here. I've been listening, watching your show for a long time, and I know many of the previous guests you've had on, and it's a real honor to be among that group.

Jeff Umbro: I appreciate that and the feeling's very mutual. I've been watching what you're doing with Cloud10 for years and have been looking for an excuse to talk to you. So I'm glad we found one.

Sim Sarna: I wanted to give you a compliment up and start that. You've just been doing some amazing work, so many different aspects of podcasting.

So just wanted to take a minute, just to let you know that it's a real honor to talk to you as well.

Jeff Umbro: Well, thank you very much. So I wanna start by walking through your early career. You actually didn't start in audio, so what drew you to podcasting?

Sim Sarna: I just love the fact that you can take, you know, your favorite, you know, radio shows with you anywhere.

You know, I mean, I remember, I mean, I mean, I was a huge fan of Howard Stern, so I guess you could call that a podcast in a way. But then when the Stern show became, came on the Sirius app, whatever it was, 2012. Whatever that was. That'd be, I guess those are podcasts. Right? And so I, I love that aspect of it. Otherwise, you know, you'd be, you'd have, you couldn't leave your car if you were listening to a great interview, a long, you know, long form interview. 

But I was listening to podcasts way back in the day, and I loved Adam Corolla when he switched from radio over to podcasting. I think that's when I kind of discovered what it was. And he was touting all of his records that he broke for downloads back in the day. I remember that. And then Chris Hardwick had a really good podcast, I think it was called Nerdist. I think he, he renamed it something else, but that was another one that I listened to. 

But then Serial. 2014, Serial was the breakthrough. I mean, it just, it was great for so many reasons, and I know you remember this, Jeff, but also the fact that you could get podcasts easily on your phone because of the purple, you know, the Apple made that the default button, the purple button. And then the speeds of the phone, the LTE made things easier to download and stream.

That to me was very interesting. It was really interesting. Like, I, how do I get to get to be a part of this world? And that's what I always thought about when Serial came out.

Jeff Umbro: I had a friend that actually in high school burned me a CD with like five episodes of This American Life, and I say that's my first podcast that I ever listened to, even though it was like basically radio back then.

But yeah, I mean it was transformative when you could just pull out your phone or your iPod or something and you'd still had to go and plug it into your computer and download an episode of a podcast and everything. But it just dramatically changed the way that you could consume any kind of media.

Sim Sarna: Yeah and then of course, right around that time also, do you remember when Apple CarPlay became almost like, I mean, every car was gonna be Apple CarPlay. You just plug in a cord and then all of a sudden your podcasts are now in your car as well. I mean, this is before, you know, every Tesla has the standard buttons that you can push, but that was a big deal to me. I mean, that was huge, having that on demand.

Jeff Umbro: I got my first card in 2015, 2016 that had like the wireless Bluetooth connection and like it was a game changer. 

Can you walk us through a little bit about what you were doing before podcasting? You were a film producer, correct?

Sim Sarna: Yeah. I went to USC film school, which is where I actually teach podcasting now, so almost full circle.

I've been teaching at USC since 2017, a class called Creating the Hit Podcast. I went to the film school there and when I was there it was all about, the independent film scene was really big, so Quentin Tarantino, Stephen Soderberg and that was really big amongst all the students. And that's, I really wanted to become an independent filmmaker.

But I was interning at the time for James Cameron, and this is, you know, post Titanic. And he was, it was just the biggest thing out there. And I worked a little bit there with, at Lightstorm before I kind of broke off to do what I really want to do, which is make movies, and started raising money for independent films.

And these are, you know, movies that cost, you know, millions of dollars, but they're just, it was just a hard business. It was tough because as much as I loved the whole process and loved doing it, just, it's like start, every single movie at the time was like starting your own business and you have to raise all the money, and just raising the money alone for me was a home run. I couldn't believe I got people to invest their money into a movie. But I did that five times, even though these movies didn't really make any money. But that taught me a lot. It taught me kind of everything I needed to know that trying to transition into podcasting. 

Luckily, I, around 2015, I was talking to my close friend, Anna Faris. I did a movie with her a long time ago, and Anna Faris’s Unqualified, which we launched in November of 2015, was probably the first celebrity podcast. I mean, if you really think about it as a pure celebrity podcast and where we brought on big celebrities and they were eavesdropping on some really cool conversations with other big movie stars like Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence.

And it was a big deal when it came out and a great show and I'm so proud of it. And. It did really well. It did really well, and that kind of, you know, launched everything.

Jeff Umbro: How did that come about? Was that your idea or Anna's idea or kind of.

Sim Sarna: Yeah yeah. We talked about it together. She was a big fan of Serial and that's when we said, well, let's figure out a way to really, you know, do a podcast that makes sense, that really works for her.

And it was an advice show, it was a celebrity advice show for the most part. You know, drew a lot of inspiration from like, Adam Corolla's, old Loveline show and, you know, combined a couple of other podcasts and then it's like, and mostly Anna and her personality and who she wanted to talk to and it just worked, you know.

And then from there, you know, started to do other celebrity shows with Kate Hudson and Sophia Bush and Busy Phillips, Topher Grace, Alyssa Milano, a few others before Cloud10 really kind of launched in 2019.

Jeff Umbro: And how did you structure this when you decided to launch Anna's show and then later when it became Unqualified Media, was that there was some kind of business and you had a stake in that business?

Was it more of like a fly by night thing when you first started?

Sim Sarna: Yeah, no, we really was, you know, a partnership. So we started the show and then we had a couple of shows underneath and then we separated ways, I think 2019. So I could go ahead and just, you know, concentrate on Cloud10.

Jeff Umbro: Why start a new company as opposed to continuing with what you were doing?

Sim Sarna: You know what, this was just something where I wanted to do everything where I wanted to have a full network where you could, you know, do all the production, all the marketing, all of the monetization, just kind of do what I kind of saw as a, as what I would want from a full network.

And it's tough to find a lot of the larger networks unless you are that show where they want to take care of you 'cause you're bringing in a lot of revenue. It's really tough to find that kind of network. You know, where you have that kind of love and attention.

Jeff Umbro: And so walk us through like, what is Cloud10? What's the elevator pitch?

Sim Sarna: Cloud10 is a place where creators can really feel safe about being taken care of as a show, whether it's production, where we'll do all of the production, all of the post-production, all of the clips for all the different social platforms. And then we'll also grow your show because we have a network of over a hundred shows.

Triton ranks us number 12 or 13, right, right about where Lemonada is. So we have enough downloads and impressions to promote the shows within our network. And then my sister, she pretty much runs the, runs all of our operations and all of our revenue. She does an amazing job of getting the host-read revenue, you know, the endorsements, the 60 second ads that the hosts read. Like, you know, obviously, you know, Jeff, that they paid the most in terms of CPM. And they're the ones that I in my opinion, I feel like that the listeners really like to listen to, you know, they, those are the ads that you don't really skip because you want, if you, especially if you have a relationship with that host, you want, and I love Conan O'Brien's podcast is probably my favorite podcast, and I'll never skip his ads. I mean, they're hysterical. Those are the ads that we, you know, specialize in and concentrate on. 

So we have a mix of shows that we produce ourselves. A lot of them are recorded in and filmed in our studio in Larchmont Village, actually right next your to Conan O’Brien’s. Very close to Conan. That's a coincidence. And then we have a bunch that are, that just are on our network that we don't do any of the production, but we handle all the promotion and the monetization. So it's a nice mix.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah. And that's kind of like a new breed of network that popped up, you know, between five and 10 years ago. It's very much very similar to what Podglomerate is and it's different from like, you know, some of the bigger networks that may want to have like full ownership of everything that they put out, but it gives you more flexibility. So given that, I wanted to ask you how you've seen like the ad market change in the last five years.

Or since you launched Cloud10, like what's working today? What is less effective than it once was when it comes specifically to ad sales?

Sim Sarna: You know, a lot of these advertisers, they wanna make sure that they get as much value for their spend. There's a lot of attribution, pixels, whatever they want to use to make sure that they're getting, you know, they're getting their money's worth.

And of course the conversions, you know, making sure that you'll get renewals if there are enough conversions where enough people are typing in that promo code. So it's harder to get those ads. It's harder to get renewals, I believe. You have to make sure that you know if a show, if you say a show, if you're selling a show at 50,000 downloads for episode, you better make sure that it will deliver 50,000 downloads per episode. So that's the difference that I've seen over the years. And I'm sure you can, you've probably seen the same thing.

Jeff Umbro: It's a little bit more sophisticated than it once was. And you mentioned all of this, people are able to actually track this stuff via technology solutions as opposed to written reports as they once were.

And I think a big piece of that is just, there are more shows than ever before. So like, you know, it's a buyer's market as opposed to a seller's market. That has definitely changed the mechanics and the economics of all of this a little bit. You guys still work with quite a bit of celebrity talent in the network.

Do you ever know, like when a project starts, like this is gonna go well versus this won't, and what are those factors that come in.

Sim Sarna: Jeff, so I've been a part of over a hundred launches now. That's crazy, right? Because we're launching probably, you know, one or one or two originals every single month. So it's, and I've been doing this for a while.

I, I've been shocked, you know, I've launched shows with some of the biggest celebrities you can think of. There's one in particular, I'm not gonna say who it is. She's no longer on the network, but you know, she's a huge star with millions and millions of followers. And you would think it is a slam dunk, you know, just a couple of social posts.And I just need a fraction of her audience on social. And we are, and this show is, you know, insanely profitable. But it just did not get even remotely close to where you would think the number in your mind would be if I told you who the celebrity is. And it just never took off from there for whatever reason.

You know, and I don't know what the, and I don't know what it is. You can blame a bunch of different things and you know, and sometimes it is, you know, it was a launch effective, did you promote it properly? But there are just a lot of times where, you know, you're, even if you have a massive audience, maybe your audience.

Doesn't want to see you or listen to you in that form in long form. Maybe they wanna see you just in social and for what you're known for. And then on the opposite, you know, I've, there were shows there, I remember, you know, a couple in particular where I just decided to green light them as a favor and I didn't think anything would happen with them.

And then they end up becoming, you know, insanely profitable shows that are still going right now. I won't mention which ones those are either because that's unfair, but honestly, I get, I'm surprised. I'm surprised all the time. But Jeff, I'm sure you've experienced something similar to that. Right?

Jeff Umbro: Yeah. For sure it's all about what can hit the zeitgeist at the right point in the right way. And sometimes you have a winner and sometimes you have a loser. And sometimes it is a reflection of just the quality of the show. But most of the time it's a reflection of where the market is at. So it's really tough, but I don't know that there's any silver bullets to working with any talent, period.

But sometimes you've, you have some kind of celebrity talent and you think that they're gonna be a handful to work with, but they're really not. Like, they're very professional and they understand what's needed. And most of the time I'd prefer that over some of the clients that, that you get otherwise, you know. 

You talked a little bit about show growth and show launches. What are some of the things that you do when you launch a new show? How do you ensure that something is gonna find its best footing when you put it out there?

Sim Sarna: That's a good question. It's really tough to ensure anything is going to, you know, launch the way you hope it would launch. But, you know, you do your best to stack the deck with whatever you have available.

And for us, you know, it's really, we're fortunate enough to have built a network with. Over a hundred shows many millions of downloads. We reserve markers for promotion for all of our shows, so when we have new show launches, it's very easy for us to stick 20 second promos across the aligned shows, you know, take, you know, clips and drop them into the feeds of the shows that, that are willing to accept them, or the ones that we own, we can put them in directly. 

I gotta tell you, it, it was a lot easier back in the day when Apple only received about 10,000 submissions a week. I can't imagine how many submissions they receive now, but if you are lucky enough to get, you know, the placement in the browse page, especially right up front where you don't have to swipe over, that's great. That's fantastic. 

And you know, you, and then of course if you have hosts that can get on other shows, whether it's shows on my network or on other networks. And what I do is I just pick up the phone and I call up. Some of my friends that run other networks, and I see if they'll have the host on and we will, and then we will do the same. We'll always do these swaps with, you know, and thankfully I know you've experienced this, Jeff, you know, everyone so far still to this point, you know, all of, we're all still very nice to each other in the industry and help each other out, and I'm thankful for that. If everything happens the right way, then maybe you can get to a point where you're on your way.

I mean, I've seen breakout overnight hits right off the bat, but I love the shows that just grow incrementally over time and get to that point where they have this audience that just loves them and sustainable, and you could continue to monetize that audience and, you know, continue to grow that audience over time. Yeah. The ones that are really, that really stick with you, those are my favorite shows.

Jeff Umbro: I have a few new ones that I've picked up in the last few years, but the majority of the shows I listen to, I've been listening to for a decade now. 

Sim Sarna: It's hard, right? It's really hard. 

Jeff Umbro: It is. And I'm sure you're in the same boat, like I will test out new shows every day.You just have to, so you can understand where the market is at. But it's very rare that I go back to that show and listen to more episodes. You know, the beauty of this industry and sometimes the, you know, root of some of its problems is that there's something for everybody. 

So when it comes to video podcasts with what you're, you know, seeing today with YouTube, TikTok, Instagram reels, I look at you guys as kind of like one of the go-to resources for how people can be using these platforms to grow their shows.

The kinds of creators that you work with, they're all native to these platforms already. So like, how do you think about that when it comes to what you're doing in order for growth, in order for ad sales, in order for like, you know, partnerships across your network? Like how do you view video?

Sim Sarna: It's always changing now. I mean, honestly I'm, for me, every week I'm thinking something different. Like right now, the way my mindset is on video is that just right now, just take a snapshot of where I'm seeing our company and the revenue that we're making and the growth and the trends that I'm seeing. I'm investing a lot in our studios.

We're building out more and more studios because I do see creators wanting a higher end look on video, you know. I'm all for, you know, the whole Zoom setup with the squares and, you know, you have your house in the background, your kitchen. I'm all for that. But I know that there are creators now that, that want to have a higher end look because when you can cut up those clips, it just looks better. You know, you have a better chance of having one of your reels go viral or one of your YouTube clips, you know you're gonna cut different length clips of your podcast, right? You have your full podcast and then you have different promotional type clips or segment clips, and you have a better chance of that going viral. I think if you have a, have it look better, you know, the set looking better. 

So I'm investing a lot in that video. I'm not even saying that you're gonna make more money off of the video aspect. I still think that. At least for us, we're still making, you know, our best shows that are, you know, that are delivering for our direct response advertisers. We are still making more money from the audio podcast than we are from, you know, anything we are from video. But we are using, you know, our smart hosts are really using YouTube right now as added value, you know, reading the ads on, on, you know, to camera putting their links in there so we can, you know, they, they can get more, you know, the chance to get more conversions over to the audio.

You'll make money from YouTube itself, you know, from whatever you get from that programmatic end. But then I'm still seeing that in terms of promotion, yeah, getting those clips, getting them to go viral. Maybe even if they don't, just driving more and more audience to your podcast. And if you can do that then you're winning. 

But I mean, your show should be living everywhere at this point. If it's that type of a show. Not saying that. 'cause we have podcasts that, you know, should not be video podcasts, you know that they're not, they, it's hard. It'll be hard to edit that way.

It just, they just belong as an audio experience and that's completely okay. But if you have the opportunity to invest in video and your, you know, your talk show, usually it's a talk show calls for it, and you can get your clips out everywhere. I don't see why you wouldn't do that, honestly.

Jeff Umbro: So now that we've talked a little bit about the ad market with video and audio, are there new revenue streams or business models that you're looking into just beyond traditional ad sales?

Sim Sarna: Yeah, you know, we, getting back to video, you know, we have shows now that we're looking into for fast channels as well. You know, as fast channels are looking for more and more content, it gets back to me talking about having a nice looking studio and set. You know, I just think that even when you're watching podcasts on YouTube, on your home, on your big screens. It just, there's just something about watching two people talk over Zoom with the squares. You know, you want a better viewing experience, in my opinion. So we are looking into fast channels as well, like the connected TVs, whatever you want to call it.

Jeff Umbro: What other channels are you looking at?

Sim Sarna: So there's Samsung TV, there's Tubi, there's a bunch that kind of specialize and are looking for more and more content. And if you can curate enough shows that work together, whether it's, you know, true crime or health and wellness, then there is some revenue to be made on that side as well.

So, so we're looking into that and, you know, live touring we've been doing for a while. So thankfully we have some shows that have enough of an audience that they want to see them live. And that's great whenever you can get out there and see your, you know, your audience in person and give them that experience that's always great for so many reasons.

So we have that aspect as well as an, as another revenue generator. Then we're continuing to do our branded shows. You know, we've worked with Unilever Dove, we've worked with Mattel, we've worked with VCA hospitals, Betterhelp in the past and you know, we can put together all types of shows and even, you know, sell media buys across our network and other networks as well.

We love doing it, and we do a good job with that as well. You know, you can't just do one thing.

Jeff Umbro: Are you also doing any premium subscriptions?

Sim Sarna: For some of our shows, that's tougher. We're getting more and more into it and I'm looking more into that and possibly having our own channel on Apple and seeing all the economics behind that.

That's something we are gonna get into this year, possibly. Maybe possibly do our own true crime channel because we have so many great true crime shows. So that's something I'm looking into. But a lot of our creators, they make money through Patreon as well, and that's great for listeners that don't wanna listen to a bunch of programmatic ads.

The show has programmatic ads or ads in general, or if they want special perks, you know, like a free show on their feed or discounts on merch. You know, that's a great option for some of the fans.

Jeff Umbro: Everything that you just said is on someone's roadmap somewhere. It's just a matter of how you execute on that. And the honest truth is like the people who are succeeding the most are the ones who were able to do more of those things more regularly than anyone else. 

So it's cool to hear that you guys are looking into all of that, and I do think the fast channels are the future and like Tubi and their Red Sea Ventures acquisition, like really underlined that trend.

Sim Sarna: I'm with you on that.

Jeff Umbro: We talked a lot about the celebrity podcast space to begin with Anna Faris's unqualified and you know, the unqualified network and a lot of the shows that you are working with now. But I'm curious, 'cause you see big celebrity shows. You still have within that, you know, a space of household names. You still have the haves and the have nots. You have the Smartless and the Alex Coopers and the Joe Rogan. You know, and I won't say any names, but you have a lot of b list actors that are getting out there with podcasts and that kind of thing, and some of them are more successful than others. What I'm trying to say is the space has gotten a lot more crowded than it once was.

So given that, what, in your opinion, still works within that niche?

Sim Sarna: Rewatch shows. Love those. They, and you know what I mean by rewatch shows, right? So that's, if anyone that doesn't know, it's like there's a popular TV show, like Friends or Seinfeld, and then maybe they'd get a couple of the actors or one of the stars of the show, and then they would go and rewatch all the episodes. Maybe they'll bring on cast or crew and talk about the episodes one by one. Those seem to work well, and advertisers also like them a lot. Especially for actors that are known for a particular role, you know, back in the day, you know, that they, I've seen they can make some substantial revenue, you know, for something that they can do in their living room, you know, and for beloved shows, like some of the ones that I just mentioned, or even like Gilmore Girls, I think there are about three or four different. 

Jeff Umbro: Oh, at least there's probably three or 400 different rewatch shows. Yeah.

Sim Sarna: That's an easy way to get in, get into it. And I also think that, you know, and your fans that know you from that show they want to for nostalgia reasons, for whatever it is, they associate you with that character. They want to hear you talk about what it was like at that time, during that moment, at that moment when you were filmed. They want to hear the inside. You know what reminds me of Jeff? You remember the DVD commentaries. I mean, you know, the young people listening to the show don't even know what DVDs are, but do you remember you'd watch your favorite movie then you'd hear like the director and the star, you know, just talk through the entire movie?

I mean, this isn't exactly like that, but it just has that feel. Right.

Jeff Umbro: It's like Mystery Science Theater 3000 or whatever it was called back in the day. 

Sim Sarna: I love that show, by the way. 

Jeff Umbro: Oh, it's amazing.  It’s DVD commentary. It's behind the scenes. It's people who can re-engage with the people that they love and the shows that they love and the stories that they love.

And I've listened to a bunch of 'em. Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin doing the Game of Thrones rewatch show for the Ringer back in the day was like catnip for me. I listened to that religiously. Binge mode. 

So, where do you see Cloud10 in a couple years? Are you guys gonna be making more celebrity shows? Are you gonna be doing more rewatch shows? Are you gonna be just really focused on anything cultural?

Sim Sarna: Everything, little everything? You know, we're in every category now and the truth is right now we're, you know, we've been leaning more towards a female demographic. You know, we have a lot of true crime, a lot of health and wellness, a lot of parenting and kids. And I personally would love to see more male shows. Like for me personally, I wanna, I would love to see more business and tech, finance, sports, more comedy, more male comedians and just really build up that side of the business is something I personally want to do. 

But then I know we, we love the fact that we've been, you know, growing slowly and growing our team slowly and we're still, you know, lean enough to move quickly and execute, you know, whenever we want and we can make any show that passes through all of the different checkpoints and we're excited to continue to grow. We love it. And partnerships. I just, you know, I love this industry so much because, you know, you or any of the other studio heads will, they'll always take my call and it'll always be, you know, we'll always figure out a way to do something together, whether it's a promotional swap or a co-production or whatever it is.

You know, there's this really, I haven't seen that type of crazy poaching com, you know, like, you know, you know competition and I mean, you're gonna get that. And there has been, and believe me, that's. And a lot of them are sometimes just business decisions, you know, when but the night, and I understand that, but for the most part we, we still really like each other, don't you think?

Jeff Umbro: I do. Yeah. And I, it's funny because I think for the first time we're starting to see these things happen and all of it is just business. The industry is maturing. We need to make decisions that are best for the business. You have a fiduciary responsibility. But it's very funny to see it because it's happening amidst and despite the fact that the entire industry are all best friends with one another.

In the very few instances where I've seen this, it's like, you know, the parties don't really know how to respond to one another. It is what I love about the industry, it's what most people do. Most people in podcasting today did not get into it because they wanted to get rich or at least get rich quick.

That has been a byproduct of. Doing something you love for a lot of people, and that's been really cool to see. But most people are in this because they love the medium and not because they want to go and make a quick buck.

Sim Sarna: Haven't you noticed, Jeff, that like, this is the only industry where billionaires will do a podcast for free?

You know, it doesn't really matter. Like they'll just take because they just love it that much, so it shouldn't really feel like work.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah, and I think it's telling that of the handful of hundred million dollar acquisitions that have occurred in the industry. By my count, like half of the people that have sold these companies just went right back into podcasting.

Sim Sarna: I saw that. I see that. Yeah, I see that too. 

Jeff Umbro: And I'm just like, okay, we're doing something right. 

So final question. If you were to start a podcast network today, what would you do differently as compared to when you launch Cloud10?

Sim Sarna: I think back, and I'm really proud because it took a lot to get here and we're still not there.

We're still growing, we're still building. We still wanna, you know, climb that hill, but starting. A podcast network right now without serious capital, because I didn't have serious capital. I did it all with my savings, my own savings. It's hard because you need the shows, you need the inventory, and you need to get profitable quickly.

It's hard to do because, you know, starting podcasts from scratch and launching them and it's just they're expensive. Especially if you have a video element right now, all of that takes time. You know, the hours spent producing and post production and launching and marketing it, it costs, it all adds up, even though podcasts still don't cost as much as TV shows and movies or whatever else, it's still, you know, something that you can do on your own. It all adds up. If you wanna do it the right way. It does, and it and it, there's no guarantee that your podcast is gonna be profitable. 

So I think about that and I think about, wow, starting from scratch, a full network. I would have to raise some serious capital. But I probably would do it over again because again, I love it. I love it so much. I guess the answer is, yeah, the answer is I would do it, but I would probably raise a lot of capital because I think you need it to do it the right way.

Jeff Umbro: Yes. The axiom of you can make a podcast in your basement with a $50 mic is still true. Yeah. But you're also gonna get a podcast that you make in your basement with a $50 mic. 

If you want to professionalize it, you know, you just have to put in the time and the effort and the work and the resources. So it's the same way as if you wanna become a famous YouTuber or author or you know, movie producer. Yeah, anybody can make all this stuff with, you know, some pretty inexpensive equipment and time, but it doesn't mean it's gonna be any good.

Well, thank you Sim, this was so much fun. I'm glad that we were able to do that.

Sim Sarna: I had a great time. Thank you so much, Jeff, for having me on.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you so much to Sim for joining us on the show this week. You can find him on LinkedIn or any social network or at Cloud10.fm. 

For more podcast related news info and takes, you can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff Umbro. 

Podcast Perspectives is a production of The Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing marketing or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at podglomerate.com.

Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all socials at Podglomeratepods. This episode was produced by Chris Boniello and myself, Jeff Umbro. This episode was edited and mixed by Jose Roman. And thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, and a special thank you to Dan Christo.

Thank you all for listening, and I'll catch you all in a few weeks.