From Script to Success: Production Secrets from Trophy-Winning Podcast

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff Umbro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Podcast Perspectives. This week on the show, we are going to be presenting a webinar that was recorded via Zoom on October 1st, 2025. This webinar was presented in partnership with the Podglomerate in New York Festival Radio Awards. It was moderated by Chris Boniello, Podglomerate, VP of Production Services, and also producer of this show Podcast Perspectives, and it featured panelists, Katie Simon, Supervising Senior Editor at NPR, working on the show Embedded Chris Oke Executive Producer at CBC podcasts, and Kristin Nelson, Head of Audio at the Boston Globe.

This webinar is all about the secrets to production success from trophy winning podcasts. In this webinar, we will uncover exclusive insights from today's leading podcasters on how they've produced hit shows and what they've learned along the way. You will hear about advanced production and storytelling techniques used by industry [00:01:00] leading studios and creators, emerging trends in tech, including video shaping, show productions, cost-effective tools and workflows to streamline your production process and best practices for pitching your story or series idea for collaboration.

This is a rare opportunity to learn from some of the best in the audio world and transform your approach to audio creation. Let's get right to the webinar.

Joni Deutsch: Welcome everyone. Thanks for being here to get us started, Rose Anderson's going to provide introductions. 

Rose Anderson: Hi, I'm Rose Anderson, Executive Vice President, New York Festivals. It's terrific that so many of you are joining us today for this masterclass and storytelling presented by The Podglomerate from Script to Success.

Production secrets from trophy winning podcast tells it all. I can't think of a better way to kick off our [00:02:00] 2026 radio awards. We'll be accepting entries through January. Our website is radio.home.newyorkfestivals.com, and I hope you'll check it out. New technology and new platforms keep changing our industry.

It seems like there's a new one every day. What hasn't changed though is the craft of storytelling itself and the people who make it happen. The best ones make it look so easy, and what they do inspires all of us every year, we worked with our advisory board and industry leaders to make sure that our categories recognize the innovative audio content being made worldwide today and reflect our commitment to podcasting and the power of the individual voice.

This year we have 22 categories, especially for podcasts, including our newest video podcast, and podcasts are [00:03:00] eligible in all other category groups. So from drama and investigative journalism to documentaries, and breaking news, New York Festival's Radio Awards can be the destination for your submission long list.

A grand jury made up of a hundred trophy winners from 20 countries. Listen online and score entries in two rounds of judging to determine the results of the selection process. This is peer review on a global scale and that 360 degree perspective is its strength. Radio is the original social media, and the theater of the mind is always open.

Today's participants have earned the highest accolades from New York Festivals, multiple grand, gold, silver, and bronze trophies, the National Press Club Award, and [00:04:00] Broadcaster of the Year Honors. I'm sure that you are as eager as I am to hear the secret sauce behind their hit programs. So I'm gonna pass the baton over to Chris Boniello, the Emmy Award and Webby Award winning VP of Production Services at The Podglomerate.

Over to you, Chris. 

Chris Boniello: Thank you, Rose. Happy Wednesday to everybody. Thank you for coming. Thank you for attending.

As Rose just said, I'm Chris Boniello, the VP of Production Services at The Podglomerate. Uh, Podglomerate is just named best Podcast Marketing and Production Agency by PR Daily. We're an award-winning services firm. We specialize in production, marketing and monetization, and we have many clients including NPR, Netflix, PBS, the Boston Globe, Harvard and beyond.

And if you wanna learn more, you can visit our website, thepodglomerate.com, and we're gonna have more webinars like this in the future. And if you're looking for any resources on production, monetization, or marketing, you can visit our website. We have many blogs about those as [00:05:00] well. And I'm really excited to moderate this conversation in collaboration with the New York Festival's Radio Awards. Our topic today is from Script to Success Production Secrets from Trophy winning podcasts. So we've got an awesome group here to go over on this webinar, how you take your initial story from the script phase into the production phase, into post-production, and then how you're getting it into those award submissions and then out into the world for everyone to listen to.

And we've got really impactful people here. As our guests, we have Katie Simon, the Supervising Senior Editor at NPR. We have Chris Oke the Executive Producer at CBC podcast, and we have Kristin Nelson, the Head of Audio at the Boston Globe. So we're gonna go through some tools, some workflows, some strategies.

You've probably heard many of their shows. All combined, we have shows like Embedded Throughline, The Outlaw Ocean, Uncover, and Snitch City. And so to jump this off, I'm gonna throw a question over to Katie to start off, [00:06:00] and a simple one. Do you have any tips, tricks, or lessons from previous productions that you always make sure when a new production is starting, whether it is in a story phase, a scripting phase, or you have some raw audio that you bring along with you?

Katie Simon: Um, tips or tricks? Well, I would say for us, so just to, just to sort of put myself in some context here, um, I am sort of representing Embedded, so I am representing NPRs home for documentary journalism, long form storytelling. So I'm talking about things sort of specifically from that perspective as opposed to, um, other types of podcasts.

So tips or tricks. I mean, I think my. Uh, this feels maybe, perhaps mundane and, and, and a little obvious, but, um, I have noticed that it's worthwhile is to really take the time to, um, organize everything first. Um, we are, you know, uh, when we're working on series, we're dealing with [00:07:00] sometimes thousands of hours worth of tape.

Um, and so we always take the time to do a really robust organization. We assign a producer to be the sort of shepherd for tape organization. We all agree to a method. We don't necessarily have one style or method that we always use, but we agree to it as a sort of smaller team who's working on a particular series or show.

And we always do that part of it first. Um, you know, rather than diving in rather than, I mean, sometimes we're working on pilots too, but I would say even, even rather than sort of iterating around ideas, um, that's a step that is time consuming and cumbersome and not always the most fun or sexiest part of the job, of course.

But, um, that's something I, I would say that I, I would highly recommend. Um, we have amazing senior producers on our team who really are just whip smart at, at doing that. But, um, if that's [00:08:00] not something you do, I would highly suggest, um, building it into your structure. 

Chris Boniello: Great. And I know within that structure a lot of our guests here have already worked together on a few productions.

So I was wondering, Chris, as you're coming into a production like this and you're building up that structure, when it's with a partnership with someone else, as you're starting this production, what sort of tricks are you bringing in right there to say, you know, we've learned this in previous productions, we now have a partnership here.

We've got a great story idea, or maybe a great pitch from someone. How do we get it off the ground running here? 

Chris Oke: Um, yeah, I, I, I think, uh, sort of what Katie's saying, like, make, making sure that you set the ground rules for how you're gonna work. Like, you know, CBC is a big organization. Um, so like when, when we worked with NPR on, on Tested, for example, we, we needed to make sure that, you know, everyone was on the same page.

That like maybe our workflows were united and, and, um, making sure we knew sort of, uh, who was in charge of what and, and how, you know, [00:09:00] notes would be, would be done. Um, to answer this question, but also jumping off on the previous question, I think having a robust outline and, and really focusing in on the, the, the story and the outline as early as possible, I find to be really helpful so that we, you know, even before you, you go out gathering, um, you know.

Even before you're, you're really building the team so that you, you know, what your story is and you, you sort of have a bit of a roadmap and obviously, you know, once you start researching and, and reporting, um, things change. Hopefully you're surprised and hopefully you're, you know, that, that that's what makes a lot of the best podcasts, the most compelling, that you're, you're surprised as you go along.

Um, but like always like working and revising that outline, um, you know, as you go along and, and definitely before you start scripting, um, make sure that everyone's on the same page and you don't end up with a, you know, a, a script or even a mix. That is a complete surprise to, to, you know, any member of your team.

Chris Boniello: Yeah, that's great. I, I know for us, we also like to try to [00:10:00] sort out. The goal posts with final deliverables as you're starting that process, especially in a partnership when you're working on a bigger show, um, all three of you come from much bigger media and legacy companies where there was broadcasting involved much stricter standards.

And where we're at now with some of the apps where you can upload various things and you kind of have to be your own final QC and stop gap there to make sure things are at, at the proper levels. Is that something, Chris, that you guys are setting up on the front end as well? Those deliverables before you kind of dive in?

Chris Oke: Yeah, like, we'll, we will, we'll have, um, sort of contracts in place in terms of deliverables and we, we go through a sort of robust, uh, production schedule, um, sort of similar to the outline. It, it's always subject to change. We, we don't always meet those, those deadlines, but, um. Again, you know, it's all about communication and, and knowing, you know, if you just have like, we, we hope to be done by X date and just hope to hit that, then you're, you're gonna be in trouble.

But like, if you've got the small sort of deliverables along the way, like as many [00:11:00] deadlines as possible, then you, you know, when you're starting to get off, when you're falling behind or if you're maybe ahead of time, um, uh, yeah, like, ha having that in place is, is crucial. 

Chris Boniello: Thanks. 

Yeah. And Kristin, I'm wondering at Boston Globe and your previous time at CBC too, but at Boston Globe, coming from traditional media, newspaper, media, where it, the story is being developed and probably presented to you in one format, and then you're trying to build out from that into an audio story.

What's the balance there as you're getting paper and script and story and seeing, oh, is this, is this worth it to transition into an audio story? Or is this something that's better gonna live on the page and we have to figure out a new format for it to bring it into a podcast world? 

Kristin Nelson: I mean, that's a big question.

And I think one of the big things is trying to, you know, it's the gift and the challenge of, of where I'm at is there's so much great journalism [00:12:00] happening all the time in this place. And so it's just figuring out how to capture it and making sure that people understand, because you don't actually wanna be in a situation where you're just getting texts and then, you know, you can't just turn that into audio.

Uh, you know, and so it's making sure that there's an awareness upfront of, okay, this, here's a story that does have audio potential. Let's, let's talk about this. Let's think about what the workflow is gonna be. If, if this is one that's gonna have good audio potential because we can't just turn it into a great podcast after the fact like that, you know, I mean, that could be a great narrated article or something, but it just won't be a great podcast.

Chris Boniello: Yeah, and then you can add on additional challenges on the backend. I know all of us are figuring out video as it's going. It feels like it was initially one sort of thing. It's evolved, it's changing. Sometimes it feels like we're remaking documentaries and reality TV and other times we're shifting into new [00:13:00] worlds.

And I was interested in how Snitch City decided to move into the animated world on video. Was that something on the starting end as you were developing or is that something that came further along in this process? 

Kristin Nelson: It really, I, I can't take credit for it. It was our great, uh, visuals team who, um, you know, definitely we were all in conversation early on.

And because it was such a challenging story in terms of how many people, obviously to protect the identity of, of, um, confidential informants who, you know, were, we're gonna have to be anonymous. And so early on, the visuals editor decided, and, um, and Ryan Huddle, who, who also leads on that for us. They decided, okay, there's not gonna be a lot of photographs, so we're gonna have to lean into, um, animating this.

And, and they hired a great person and an illustrator to do that. And so then the idea [00:14:00] was, well, let's experiment with this and take the audio and try to animate it. And that was a huge effort. And you know, so between the illustrations and some photos and documents and that sort of thing that, you know, they took the audio and turned it into something else.

Beautiful. Um, so it was an early on decision. Um, for sure. 

Chris Boniello: And I think it's amazing. It, it's one, I've used it as, as an example in productions. I think it's a fun way to figure out transforming what might not work quite as video into a new format. And then what you need to add, what is decorative versus non decorative.

What makes it exciting to watch there, I think is, is a lot fun and an interesting challenge that we're all facing a little bit here, but I think animation is a great way to add something to it. Um, Katie, I was wondering at NPR, is that something that you're looking at in that early stages of, of figuring out your storytelling approach?

Are you seeing more pitches with video elements [00:15:00] added to it? Are you seeing larger stories in terms of the deliverables with tho those elements? 

Katie Simon: Um, I'll answer that a few different ways. No, I don't think we're seeing. Pitches with video elements yet. For Embedded. Um, that doesn't mean that NPR at large isn't seeing some sort of pitching a video, podcast pitching that might be happening that I might not be aware of.

Um, but what I will say is that, well, something that's twofold, we are thinking about it, um, in terms of, um, how can we sort of enter that space. Um, yes, I agree. I think, uh, Kristin Boston Globe, you guys did an amazing job. Um, animation has been something also that is very appealing. I think, um, actually back from my, my days at StoryCorps, when we did a lot of animating of stories, that can really help when something historic, when some, when you haven't gotten out there with a videographer, um.

To get it initially right. You can recreate it [00:16:00] in a way that's very, very powerful. Um, but we are thinking about ways of including video and potentially short docs as a part of, um, embedded work. It's something that we're working on for 2026 and and 2027, but I haven't, I haven't had people come to me yet with like actual video podcast pitches for documentaries.

Chris Boniello: It'd be interesting to see what they bring. I think, I think we're shifting to a larger, uh, world of deliverables here where a podcast is gonna have a lot more elements than just the audio these days that we're used to. Um. And then going back into kind of the storytelling elements. Chris, I had a question for you.

Coming from the perspective up in Canada, how are you building at and looking at stories in these initial stages to say, we want to keep this a domestic audience, we wanna grow international, we want to look at, you know, for example, these awards like here in New York. What, what, what are you looking to plan ahead of time to say, this is gonna work domestically, but we wanna be able to send this [00:17:00] internationally, or we wanna keep it here?

Chris Oke: Yeah. Um, I mean, I, I think like podcasting itself is, is a pretty global medium. Um, but, but yeah, so like we, you know, Canadians are listening to, uh, podcasts from around the world, from from the us lots of NPR, you know, the daily, uh, lots of BBC podcasts as well. So I think, uh, you know, Canadians are sort of maybe more used to, um, a, a more slightly more global perspective.

Um, so I think like, because of that and because like we're all sort of competing in the same podcast charts and, and, uh, you know, for time and people's ears, um, we just wanna make sure that the stories, uh, stand up to that. So. That can sometimes mean that they are really, you know, international globe trotting, uh, um, topic like, like tested for exam.

Uh, again, but, uh, it can also mean something like really small. Like we had a series called Come By Chance, which is about, uh, two men that were switched to birth in a, a [00:18:00] very tiny town in, uh, Newfoundland. And uh, you know, in that case, like the more specific you, you get, the more interesting and more universal it, it sort of becomes for, for listeners.

Um, so we, we don't really see it as an issue between sort of, you know, domestic Canadian audiences and international. I think, you know, as long as we're making a really great story for our Canadian audiences, um, I think Americans and Brits and, and Nigerians and everyone else will be, will be interested as well.

Chris Boniello: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And when you're structuring those teams, like for a smaller story, for example, are you looking to build out a single producer that's seeing that story all the way through? Are you building out multiple people for episode specific ideas or people to go chase leads to go beyond things? Or are you trying to keep things contained within a small team? 

Chris Oke: Yeah, it's, um, we, we have different production models, um, but often it, it's contained within a team. Um, we like for, uh, our hosts [00:19:00] to be actively involved in the, the production and reporting. I find like that this, the closer someone is to the story, the, the, the better the, the telling of it often.

Um, so there is that and, and so if you can get somebody with some, some knowledge, um, some sort of experience with, with the story itself, then that's great. Um, but then I, I find it also helps to have somebody with a bit more of an outsider perspective and, and whether that outsider perspective is, is based in Toronto and you're telling a story in, you know, small town BC or, you know, even like we've worked with, um, folks in, in the US and, and the UK as well, and it is sometimes interesting to see the, the takes that they have on, on these stories that we maybe take for granted.

So having, having a mixed team in that, that way it's, it's, it's quite a privilege to have like, you know, two, three people on a team, but it really does help. 

Chris Boniello: Yeah. And on the team building aspect. Uh, Kristin, I was wondering when you're working with journalists and hosts who might be separate from the [00:20:00] researcher and storyteller on the newspaper side of things, are you looking to build out a host for their talents or also their possible expertise in that subject?

Kristin Nelson: Um, well, we have a couple different things here. I mean, on, certainly we have a relationship podcast, um, and it's very much about the host Meredith Goldstein, who, you know, has an outsized, um, you know, she has a following. She's a, she's a personality, she's someone you wanna spend time with and sort of so that, that sort of helped shape that world.

Um, and she's a big part of, you know, it's, it's narrative storytelling, but again, she's sort of by definition a part of all those narratives. Um, on the investigative side. Um. You know, it's tricky. I, I I, I have to say like, it's really interesting working with print journalists or, you know, traditionally print journalists [00:21:00] and there's a real ability to look.

A lot of what I spend my time doing is doing audio skills transfer, you know, and doing a lot of sessions and teaching people how to do the thing. And, um, it is magical. I love audio and what we do is hard, but also you can teach people how to do this, you know, and there's a lot of people who maybe came up in print or digital, like text only, who are very keen and very trainable and who, and if they have an interest in audio, you can absolutely learn it.

Like, I wanna say that here. If anyone is sort of coming in and wondering if they can, it's hard. It's doable. Like I've seen these print people become, um, yes. As you know, Murder in Boston, the podcast that we did, and you know, Adrian Walker, he's telling this story that happened back in the eighties when he was a cub reporter.

[00:22:00] You know, and you've got all these like grizzled people who, you know, print reporters who came up in smoking newsrooms and they're just like, oh my God, I can't believe you're a podcaster now. You know, like it's just, and, and he was, he sounded fantastic. And that team really like learned, um, how to do everything from soup to nuts.

And so yes, there was strong production help along the way and a lot of story editing, but, um, it's doable. So I don't know if that answers your question, but 

Chris Boniello: I think it does. Do you have any. Quick tips or tricks that you use when you're bringing in someone for those audio skills? I know I like to get a new host or someone who doesn't have too much practice work on listening to their own voice.

And then one of my tricks is if they think they're gonna say, um, to put their tongue to the top of their mouth or the back of their teeth, hold it there for a second and try to not say the, um, there you, 

Kristin Nelson: I mean, 

Chris Boniello: anything you're always bringing to the table. 

Kristin Nelson: I will say, I mean, we have a person, we've [00:23:00] brought to the table a lot.

You, you know, I mean, I, and, and I think a good producer has a good ear and can help train the person. Um, so as long as someone is willing to go through that learning curve, and not everyone is gonna get there, I don't think. But if you bring in someone outside who, like I've worked with actors who, who really help elevate in just a couple sessions with an actor and actually, uh, with Chris and I, the, the podcast that.

We did together. Um, you know, uh, we had a very, like traditional news reporter who wasn't used to the tone that you needed for podcasting. And it, you know, it just takes a couple sessions with the right person and if they're open to it that you can train them. Um, and I don't know, I think the big one, if I had one tip, is I like to say, okay, just start with, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you a story and look at me and tell me [00:24:00] that story.

And so, um, I like to just get real intimate in that room with them. 

Chris Boniello: I think that's great. Yeah. Breaking down those initial walls, getting comfortable with people, getting 'em a little bit off script, uh, introducing themselves so that they were at a cocktail party or something. A little more relaxed. 

Katie Simon: Yeah. I was gonna say, if we just along those lines, you know, if we're working with somebody who doesn't, doesn't have a ton of experience writing for audio, writing for this type of audio, we sometimes just go completely off script and just.

Just say no script for a while and we're gonna do sort of big brain dumps and then we'll rewrite the script based on those brain dumps. Or sometimes we don't even need to, but we will go into sort of a slightly non narrated style of collecting, uh, tape to create something pretty quickly if the person we're working with, um, you know, is either a really traditional news reporter, even if that's news for audio, um, uh, or just doesn't have any experience with it.

And it tends, it's, it's very [00:25:00] effective in our experience. 

Chris Oke: And just to jump in, like one, one other thing that I've, I've found to be interesting, like working with, um, with hardcore journalists, like it's sometimes the storytelling takes a little while to, to sort of, um, figure out. Um, I think that they're used to sort of stating what they know up top, the whole inverted pyramid, and then giving you evidence of it as it goes along.

And, um, you sort of have to encourage them to sort of flip that around. Start with the question that drove them, that that made them curious in the first place. And then as we go along, as we report it out, then you arrive at the conclusion that, that you arrived at. You know, it, it's sort of, it, it's a bit of a switch in, in the brain.

I, I, I think. But, um, once you get there, it's, it can be really good. 

Chris Boniello: Yeah, I don't think you have to be too worried about being locked in on the page when you have a script with a, with a host who has a personality or something you're trying to achieve there. Mm-hmm. Can be nice to get them first, to find their voice, and then you can rewrite in that voice.

Um, [00:26:00] I know we try to not be overly locked in scripts on some of our narrative things if it's not working with the voice, if it's becoming too performative versus natural. I, I think that's something a lot of new hosts deal with and people coming from other industries into this, because now you are partially an actor, partially a host, partially a narrator, and also a storyteller on, on this level that is not quite as comfortable as just reading something off a script there.

Um, Katie, I was wondering in that world where NPR shows kind of have a voice and almost have a feel to 'em, do you ever feel like you're. Setting up the box to be inside of it, or do you guys like to try to break down some walls and, and move away from what people might call the NPR sound? 

Katie Simon: Uh, yeah, very much the latter.

Um, I, I think we have enormous respect and admiration for the sound right, that we helped to develop. But the thing [00:27:00] that's, uh, really exciting about the way Embedded works now, um, you know, Embedded for those of you who don't know was started by Kelly McEvers, um, longtime NPR Reporter and Host who did just amazing, outstanding work.

Um, it has transitioned into a new era where, um, we are now working with a different host with every single series. So we are actually host, well Kelly does sort of an intro and sort of shepherds people in, um, to the story for all of our stories. But we are fundamentally working with a different host, a different maker.

Somebody with different aesthetics, with different style, with different experience, with different, um, aspirations for every single series we do. And that's something we're really trying to lean into. One of our series might be very memoir stick, very personal, very sort of heartfelt, very off script.

Another series of ours might be very, um, in a much more investigative, much more sort of traditionally reported. Um, and so [00:28:00] far, at least with our listeners, they're coming along for the ride. Um, we're, we're kind of promising them, hopefully excellence and a really, really good story. Something that they feel, you know, feels relevant, feels sort of, um, integral to their lives right now.

But like, take a chance and just like, come on this ride with us. And so far it's working. And I would say some of our stuff has sort of an NPR sound and then some of it really doesn't, but right up against each other. Like within the same, within the same year. 

Chris Boniello: Yeah. And when you're in that process of kind of re-envisioning sound like that, do you find that there's a lot of back and forth there, a lot of editing in the post-production to achieve that or re-recording and what's that workflow look like for you guys?

Katie Simon: Um, no. I mean, I think we like each series. Uh, you know, the, the, the aesthetic for Embedded is that it's really on the ground reporting. So as long as we have that element to it where we are really sound rich, scene based, everybody on [00:29:00] here knows what I'm talking about, right? Um, as long as we have that, we're not, we're not conversa, we're not doing conversations, we're not doing, um, you know, sort of very historical things where we're certainly not recreating anything.

Um, as long as we have that, we're using that as the thread that sort of connects all of our series together. And then we're really letting our makers like, have their, um, I wanna use the word point of view, that, that feels like it's certainly sort of veering into opinion. I don't mean it that way, but sort of they're bringing their aesthetic to the table of, of how they, how they wanna sound and how they write.

Um, so we're, it's, it's actually really fun to work in, in these sort of different little bubbles along the way. 

Chris Boniello: I think creating that aesthetic of an, of a new show or bringing it back or refreshing it is one of most fun, creative processes you can have. You can kind of break a bunch of things and decorate a few things and see what works or doesn't work.

Um, [00:30:00] Kristin, is that a process you're going through at The Boston Globe? Having a defined sound, but then bringing these aesthetics to a specific show and saying, you know, we need to keep this feel across this whole season, but maybe on this episode we can break something or change something. Maybe we can do a new intro.

Maybe we can shift the tone here, but still keep it whole across the series. 

Kristin Nelson: Um, well, certainly. I mean, I think we have a similar thing the. Spotlight feed that we started for Snitch City is new, but it, it will be similar. The, the investigative podcast that The Globe has done, um, before me and with me, it's similar to Katie's experience where it's a different host each time, a different aesthetic, a different story.

And so the thing that's gonna keep them equal for us in that feed is the level of production. Like the standard of journalism. Absolutely. And, you know, the, the [00:31:00] spotlight and brand, the high level of investigative holding people to account and taking you on, you know, a great journey. So we're still figuring that out, but I think, um, I look to Embedded it all the time about how to do that and Uncover.

Katie Simon: Kristin, we should talk more. We're very aligned with we're, we're like trusting that the audience understands the sort of quality of journalism and the, and the approach, I think maybe to storytelling and journalism that we're taking. And then we're saying like, please come, you know, you might be interested in this topic, or you might not be, and you might be really interested in this other topic.

Or, and like, it's a little bit of like, pick and choose your own adventure since we're a limited series within the same feed, as opposed to just like a weekly episodic thing. 

Chris Oke: And that, that also allows each season to be the best sort of podcast series that it can be. And, and so like some stories, you know, maybe aren't quite as serious.

So you can, you can afford to be a little bit more playful. [00:32:00] Other ones where you, you would not wanna do that. You want to be a little bit more journalistic and by the book. Yeah. We, we we're, we're all similar. We do the same thing and uncover and uh, yeah. It really allows each individual series to have its own voice and to be told the best way possible.

Chris Boniello: When you're doing that, Chris, I know we were talking earlier beforehand that you really like story producing and kind of story editing and massaging those moments. Is that something you're looking at on a whole for a series or are you guys building episode episode and looking to maintain that consistency while editing and giving feedback within the team?

Also being under the larger CBC umbrella to fit it within those shows too. 

Chris Oke: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's sort of similar. Like we, we just want the storytelling quality to be as high as possible. And so we're often, as we're outlining we're, we're looking at the series as a whole and sort of making sure that there's a structure and a, a story arc to that.

But then, you know, it's not just one story that you're breaking into [00:33:00] six pieces for a six episode series. Like we, we want each of those individual episodes to be compelling and to, uh, to have a story arc of their own, to have a driving question, to feel satisfying at the end of it, so that you hypothetically could listen to just one episode and think that was really, really good.

Um, but then also it's so good that you want to continue on and, and, and listen to the next. So yeah, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's something that we're working on as we go along and, and we. From the structure, the episode outline to to paper edits we're going through and making sure that that's all there.

Then we'll listen to a mix and listen through and make, make sure that that's compelling. And, uh, and then often, you know, in best case scenarios, we, we, um, uh, once the sort of majority of the episodes are done, we'll go back and listen through, sort of back to back to make sure that that, you know, there's no sort of needless repetition that there's no story strands that, that have been sort of left unresolved, um, [00:34:00] that, you know, listening to it in a sort of binge form, which is the way a lot of listeners tend to consume things, um, that it, it, it still holds up and that it works that way too.

Chris Boniello: Yea, I always find that as a team, it's really helpful to go back and listen to those mixes and then notice the moments of saying, oh, I went to check my phone, or I went and looked at emails during here, and now I'm not paying attention, and that might be a spot to edit. Or if I put it on in the car and now I've noticed that 20 minutes have gone by and I didn't actually process anything.

Oh, maybe we should jump back in here, adjust this story, and then. If you're locked in, it also leads into the the point of saying like, actually, you know, we've really nailed this. Now do we submit it to awards now? Do we go beyond this and start promoting it? And as you're getting to those stages, um, I know you guys have all kind of worked together a bit, but how are you looking at promoting and interacting between different companies?

I could throw this to you, Kristin first, as building that newer spotlight team and promoting those stories now on the audio format, looking [00:35:00] either for awards, promotions between teams saying, you know, we're really locked in on this story. We're really happy with it. We think it's amazing Now we wanna really put it out into the world and make sure it doesn't just end up in the sea of other shows.

Kristin Nelson: Yeah, I mean that's, it's, it's nerve wracking launching a new podcast at this moment in time. But, um, you know, I think with The Globe we have a wonderful, really powerful digital audience and, and audience team. And so when you sort of like leverage all the different corners of The Globe and have a a smart marketing plan, um, I think it, it's still doable.

It, it's, it's very hard. But I think one of the things that we have going for us too is this very, very powerful brand and spotlight. And so, um, I think that that helped you, you know, I mean, absolutely having a very strong [00:36:00] product, but also, you know, it helped us get a little bit of, of, um, attention that way and just, um, natural marketing as well.

I mean, we even, we had one billboard up in New Bedford, you know, and I, and like the audience there was incredible, like, I still also believe in just like on the ground marketing and like handing out QR codes and stuff like that. So I think there's a lot of levers to pull. You just need to be creative and, you know, have a plan early.

Chris Boniello: Yeah, I think that's very true. Katie, I saw you nodding your head. Was there anything you wanted to add? 

Katie Simon: Um, I mean we, you know, um, since NPR is an enormous broadcast reach, um, we, uh, have a. You know, a regular plan with our colleagues on the broadcast side of things where we do, you know, segments in two ways, um, with our, our colleagues at Morning Edition and All Things Considered, um, which often brings to light like [00:37:00] some really interesting reporting for their audiences of course.

And then, you know, works back to the podcast. So we, we do rely heavily on that, um, sort of using the NPR and the NPN network to sort of, to get out the word for us, but, um, it is, it is a tall, uh, mountain to climb. Um, and, you know, I love the idea of a, of, of a billboard, um, um, in New Bedford, Kristin, that sounds, that sounds wonderful and like really perfect for that series, so I'll have to think about that.

Chris Boniello: I think that's great. Um, when you're on the other side of that mountain, what are you looking at for. Your success for a show if, whether it's just numbers, beyond numbers, what sort of engagement you're getting from the audience there? 

Katie Simon: I mean, for Embedded something that we've really been focusing on our consumption rates, you know, there's, there's a certain amount of self-selection, right?

At a lot of different points, right? There's self-selection of do I like long form [00:38:00] audio at its most basic. And then there's a self-selection of like, is this topic interesting to me? Um, or, you know, is this something I wanna spend time with? Is this host somebody I wanna spend time with? But what we've had a lot of luck with over the last two and a half years is having just a really high consumption rate where we're seeing, like, once you sort of decided that this series is for you, we're getting over 90% of our listeners staying through and listening the whole way through.

And so that, in terms of measuring the success is a, is a big measure for us. You know, different series are tapping into the zeitgeist in different ways. The news cycle, as we all know, is, is, uh, brimming with stories, um, right. That can be hard to compete with. But, so once people are finding us and saying, yes, this is something we're, we're feeling that we're a big success.

When we have that, that over 90%. 

Kristin Nelson: Yeah, I would agree. When you, when you're thinking [00:39:00] about how long people are spending with you, you know, 'cause it can be really exciting just to get how you, you know, the level of engagement and the depth, uh, depth of engagement is still why, you know, I really believe in the medium and, um, there, there's nothing like it.

I mean, people stick with you and that's incredible. 

Chris Boniello: Chris, I saw you nodding your head. Anything to add There is something you're finding from engagement with people or consumption or, you know, success within the team versus just download numbers. 

Chris Oke: Yeah, yeah. We're, we're trying to move beyond download and sort of like, look at like the number of individual followers, making sure, especially with a, uh, umbrella feed like Uncover, just making sure that every new series is, is, is growing.

Um, the number of followers and listeners there so that we, you know, we have, I can't remember what the number is, but like 34 se seasons in there now. So like, if, if we do find someone new who enjoys what we're doing, they, they've got plenty of, of past [00:40:00] seasons to, uh, explore as well. Um, but I, I think stepping back a little bit, like, I, I think one of the things that we've done that I'm really proud of is, is we have, um, a whole part of our team, um, overseen by, uh, Tanya Springer, my colleague, who is sort of focused on, on audience and growth.

And we, we try to bring them into the production process as early as possible. And so, like, even as we're still, um. You know, creating new episodes as writing and, and mixing. Um, we are having those discussions about sort of like, what's, what's the quickest and easiest way to, uh, to describe this show? Um, what is, you know, like we're, we're looking at the title, we're looking at artwork, but I think the main thing is like, we want to be able to ex, uh, describe it in a way that's simple and effective and, and, and really gripping.

Um, and then continue to do that in a way that, that any listener coming to that show will sort of get that. And if a friend of theirs asks for a podcast recommendation, they can, [00:41:00] um, sort of turn to that, that it's a show about X or, you know, whatever it is. And so I think having the audience sort of in mind at every stage, um, really helps when you do get to that stage where you're, you're trying to promote the show and, um, yeah.

And I think like when, when we do see a success like it, it's, for me, it's really nice to watch when an entire series has. Rolled out and you have that final episode go out, and then all of a sudden you see this big spike, um, in, you know, whether it's listener listening hours or, or even downloads. Um, for me, and maybe I'm reading too much into it, but like for me it means like, oh, like we, we've done a really great job.

This is a really great series that people have then gone out to tell their friends about and, uh, or they've decided to, to binge the entire thing or whatever it is. So, um, sort of playing the, the long game and, and sort of looking at the long tail of some series as well, like, you'll see them stick around, you know, whether it's in the charts or the, the amount of downloads.

Um, for a long time. That's, that's when I really [00:42:00] feel like we've, we've succeeded in telling a really successful story. 

Chris Boniello: Amazing. And, uh, I'm just gonna ask it, um, short, lightning round. Quick question here. What do you find on these teams with limited budgets compared to other bigger media properties is one of the most cost effective things you can do in terms of your team or your investment in production to make a high quality show.

Let's throw it to Katie first. 

Katie Simon: Um, work with talented people. I just keep copying all your answers. I mean, sure, that's, that sounds like a cop out. But, um, you know, work with talented people and also like, don't force something to work, I think is another, uh, uh, method towards efficiency and quality, right?

Like every, all of this is hard work. I think we all know that. Um, but. We also know when something like is at its core, it it going to work. [00:43:00] And I feel like that's sort of the most efficient, right? Is not trying to like really grasp at something that's like a great idea but doesn't have some of the, the core elements to the reporting, like really in hand.

Um, so I mean we're, I think we, yeah, we're at our most successful when, um, when the reporter we're working with like actually has the access that they need to like really report the story. That sounds super basic, but it's not always the case. And it's things like that, that actually cause a lot of inefficiencies and with inefficiencies, right?

Like a lot of money to be spent on trying to get to somebody or figuring out how to make up for, oh, we thought we were gonna have that person, but we don't really like, how are we gonna fill in flesh out that part, part of the storytelling or the reporting. Um, like being sure that we have those elements when we're starting off the project.

Um, I think is, is the way we handle that. 

Chris Boniello: Chris, you got any secrets to? 

Chris Oke: Yeah, I think like, if, if you're like an independent, independent [00:44:00] producer, like I, I think, um, sort of Katie said like, like, work with great people. I, I think people is important there. Like even if you're one person and you're doing it all on your own, um, you know, bring as many people in as, as, as you can.

That doesn't mean like you're hiring a huge team, but like having people just, just explaining the story to someone else can be super helpful and get you out of your own head and, and, and thinking about, you know, how an audience might receive it. You know, playing mixes for people, which can sometimes be painful, but as soon as, especially if you're in a room together and you're watching someone's face as you're listening, like you, you can go through it on your own a thousand times, but like, just once in a room with an actual other human being, um, you know, instantly what's working and what's not.

Um, so yeah, I think there's, there's that. And then. I think also if, if a, an episode isn't working, like putting it off to the side, not, not, uh, you know, um, hitting your head against a wall, but just like letting things sit for about a while and then come back to it in, in that sense, you, you're almost [00:45:00] playing the role of a, of a new listener coming back to something and sort of reengaging with it sometimes, uh, issues that you might have with an, an episode or a series or whatever it is.

Um, you know, if it, it feels like there's no solution, but like if you let it sit for a while, come back to it, those, uh, solutions can, can present themselves. Or maybe you realize it wasn't a big issue to begin with. Mm-hmm. 

Chris Boniello: Yeah. That's great. Um, going on to your mention of people, um, we can just throw it out if anyone wants to jump in, but how do you vet your talent or your people that you haven't worked with before as you're building these teams?

Katie Simon: I, I can go first because we've spent a lot of time thinking about that, uh, over the past 18 months or so. Um, we spend a lot of time with them. We, um, we rarely, frankly, just green light something that's coming from, from anybody. Um, we know we only do four or five seasons a year. Um, we're not a weekly show, right?

So each one, we're gonna [00:46:00] sort of get involved with people for, you know, nine months to a year. And so we need to make sure. We all get along at a really basic level, um, that the reporting really stands up that our NPR standards and practices and, um, legal requirements and all of those will align with the way that the person who's pitching us wants to be able to tell their story.

And so we do that really just by spending some time. We, we tend to do, we sort of formalize the way we do it a little bit. Um, if, uh, you know, of course we pass on plenty of pitches that are amazing pitches that, that either just don't make sense for us in our show or are unaffordable or, or, you know, um, have been covered elsewhere recently.

Um, but if we decide we're really interested, we tend to spend, um, three to six weeks doing something, what we call our shepherding process where. Somebody who's pitched to us will work with one of our producers. And [00:47:00] there's no exact formula to it sometimes because it depends on what the person is coming with in their pitch, right?

But like, it might mean that, that per, we ask that person to share a lot of their tape with us. We of course do this, um, you know, in, in a way that like, makes everybody comfortable. We're never taking your tape or anything like that. Um, you know, and, and lets our producer listen and say, okay, this rep, this reporter is reporting in a way that's very familiar to us, that makes us feel very comfortable, that feels really robust.

That feels like the way we would wanna approach things. That's like such a great sign, right? That might be one thing we do. Um, we also might take the, the deck or the outline or whatever the pitch was to begin with and work with that reporter on it to say like, well, here's how we think we would start to consider shaping this.

What do you think? Are we okay? And what were you thinking you were gonna do? Right? And so like let's get a feel for each other's ideas about how to push this thing forward. Are we in [00:48:00] alignment? Does this make sense? Does the person who's pitching us come to us with some outlandish idea that we just absolutely know would not pass muster at NPR, right?

If so, like we'll have a conversation about it. Was it an idea or is it something they're committed to? So it's a little bit like dating. We sort of date a little bit for a few weeks and make sure that we are, um. Sort of simpatico with like how we would move forward to produce the story. And it's really important.

It's, it's obviously, I think it's obvious why it's important for us to do that, but frankly, I think it's just really, really important for the person pitching us. Like we, we want to be the right place for you to tell your story. There are other places for you to tell your story. We want to make sure it's really a series.

So many people come to us with stories that are amazing, stories that really should be told probably in, you know, a 15 to 20 minute piece. Maybe it's on This American Life, maybe it's [00:49:00] elsewhere, right? But maybe don't actually fit into sort of our series structure. And so we wanna make sure it's gonna be a good relationship either way.

So that's how we handle it. 

Chris Boniello: Great. Um, let's jump in kind of a shift from all the larger talk we've had about everyone working at bigger organizations. Or what advice do you have for a small company that doesn't have the backup of a big organization? 

Chris Oke: Um, I, I would say team up with other small companies.

Like, like if you're putting out a series, um, doing like cross promo with, with other, um, people doing similar series, things like that. Um, again, you know, making sure that you're sort of making sure that other people are listening to your work as it's, as it's going out. Like find, find help where you can.

Um, yeah. 

Chris Boniello: Following up on that, you know, what collaboration and cross promotional opportunities should you look for as an indie podcaster, you know, what's the best way to go about setting up that network? Do you guys have any [00:50:00] tips on that? 

Katie Simon: Well, maybe in relation to both of those questions.

Chris Boniello: Yeah.

Katie Simon: To, to take one step back is just like, be really honest with yourself about what exact skills you are bringing to the table and which ones you're missing.

And don't be shy about acknowledging. The gaps and like find people who can fill those gaps, uh, whether that's marketing or cross-promotion or engineering or fact checking or whatever it is. Like, just be super honest. 

Chris Boniello: Great. Kristin, anything to add there? Or, I saw you nodding your head along. 

Kristin Nelson: Yeah, no, I, I think that's really good advice, uh, because just finding the holes, you know, but, but I also think there's a lot that you can do and I would think about also trying to just capture something and have a pilot have something that is solid, like a trailer or whatever, and then going out to find the, the partner who's really gonna help you [00:51:00] find the biggest audience.

But you have to have. You have to have something to show for it. And the more you have to show, and like to Katie's point, like the more tape you have, the more of a sense that you can give, like whoever you wanna work with of, of what you're bringing to the table, the, the better those conversations will go.

Chris Boniello: Yeah, I agree. I think a trailer or a pilot or even five to 10 minutes of super, super polished stuff that has a tone, that has a setting that people can start imagining where it goes beyond that is such a great way to promote, to chat with people. Say, you know, we don't have full funding. We don't have this full story, but we've got five minutes of amazing audio.

Yeah. And, and you can kind of see where this is headed from. 

Katie Simon: Yeah. Like we haven't said yes to anything that doesn't have tape. 

Chris Boniello: Yeah. 

Katie Simon: Whether it's five minutes or five hours. 

Chris Boniello: Yeah. Yeah. And going on that, Kristin, what are good strategies to convert a print piece into a podcast? So I think talking about this, building a trailer, start building some elements there. Um, what elements do you think about [00:52:00] before the print piece is reported? 

Kristin Nelson: I mean, we've done this from different angles. Um, you know, ideally if we're talking about the kind of work that Katie and Chris do, um. And like talking about a serialized narrative story, then I'm not even thinking about it as converting a print story into, because by then it's probably too late, you know?

And so, but there are, there, there have been great stories that are imprint that we can do really well in a two way after the fact if some tape was gathered. Um, but really the biggest thing is, is thinking about it as audio first from the beginning. Not thinking of it as a print story that you're gonna convert, but thinking of how are we gonna go about reporting this for both platforms?

And you really need to be thinking about how you capture that reporting journey and all, like the big thing you [00:53:00] need. Maybe this goes without saying to this group, I'm not sure, but I. Tape, tape, tape. You cannot have a good narrative podcast if you're not gathering tape. And so you're trying to record everything you can in your reporting journey.

All the phone calls, all the Zoom calls, all the, you know, and then, you know, a lot of times with us, we don't know. How big this story's gonna get, you know, it's like, ooh, this could be, this could go in a lot of different ways and we're trying to capture it as it's unfolding. And that's often the best tape if you're capturing something as it's unfolding, but because you don't know where it's going, and before you can green light something, or even yellow light it, you know, you need to sort of have a sense of, okay, well even, um, what is the minimal version of this story?

Okay, well, even if we only end up with the smallest version of this story, um, we're gonna want tape on that, you know, or this as you're [00:54:00] reporting this out. This is great and this is gonna be a big, big story, but, ugh, we'll kick ourselves later if we weren't gathering audio from the get go. 

Chris Boniello: And I think on that note, looking at the storytelling, look at the tape you have, how much do you leave to sound design to create impact and sensations for the listener?

Or do you simply prefer to leave it within the realm of the storytelling? What are you looking to either decorate or make more impactful with your sound design? 

Kristin Nelson: Me or anyone? 

Chris Boniello: Anyone want to jump right in? I mean, 

Kristin Nelson: I mean, I'll say I think this is like very much a taste question. This is very controversial and it's, and it's hard, you know, um, and it can get cheesy real quick, but.

It's also you're trying to create a setting and a scene and you, there are tools to use to take the person into that, you know? And so, but again, to Chris's point, like having those other [00:55:00] ears, because, because sometimes you could think this is wonderful, and then you're, you realize, oh gosh, that, that did veer into the cheesy, but, but also like some of the biggest podcasts.

Like, you know, that that's, that's a thing. You're taking them into a world. 

Chris Oke: Yeah. Well, I, I just, I, I worry when people are sort of trying to use it as a crutch to, to try to make a moment more, um, compelling than it really is. Like I, I think if you've, if you've got an emotional moment or a really compelling scene and you're using a little bit of sound design to, to bring that out and elevate it, then great.

But if, if you're relying on sound design to make some boring tape sound exciting, then you might get into trouble. 

Katie Simon: Yeah, I would just really say less is more. I think from our perspective, I, I like the sound design to really be organic and, and come from the, the tape itself. I mean, we, we do scoring, we pace things out, right?

So that they hit in the right [00:56:00] way. Um, we play with all of that certainly, but, um, I would not be, I mean, you can be thinking about sound design especially, you know, as far as like your taste is concerned, what you like and what you don't like. But I would not be thinking about sound design as a tool early on, I don't think, yeah, I would really just be thinking about the reporting and the structure and like what characters are gonna shift and change over your narrative.

Sound design will not fix any of those holes. 

Kristin Nelson: Yeah. It's the icing. 

Katie Simon: Yeah. Okay. 

Chris Boniello: That's great. All right, one last, last question. I guess all of you guys have a good amount of experience in this, but when you're developing your podcast around a true story, especially one with like local history community, Chris, you were talking about this with building the smaller teams.

How do you balance that need for your narrative drive and keeping it interesting and using those breadcrumbs to tell that story, but making sure you're honoring the real people in those events? 

Kristin Nelson: Yeah, and I, [00:57:00] I think there's absolutely a way to do it. And, um, maybe I'll just throw it to Chris because I, I mean, I, I feel like it's about, I mean, the great thing is you have people's voices and that's what you're relying on and, and you know, you're trying to do justice to those voices and you're letting it be in their words, and again, this is why I love the medium, is you're not selecting a quote here or there.

You know, you're taking, you're really getting to know this person and this place. In an intimate way, and I think that gets you a long way to answering that question. 

Chris Oke: Yeah, and I think like we, we all work for news organizations and we, we have sort of standards and ethics and everything is, but like you, you, you have a responsibility to your, your subjects, but you, you also have a responsibility to your audience.

And, and I think, um, you know, you just have to find the right balance for that and, and make sure that, um, you [00:58:00] know, uh, that you're, you're also doing justice for, for your audience as well, telling a story, um, in a way that that's true. And, um, and also compelling that they're, they're giving you a lot of their time and so you want to, um, be respectful of that.

Chris Boniello: Katie, last word to add in there on that or 

Katie Simon: no, I, I agree. Totally agree. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I, I, I think I agree with what Chris said. 

Chris Boniello: Amazing. I want to thank everyone for joining and listening. This was a really fun conversation. Thank you again to the New York Festivals Radio Awards team.

Thank you to Rose Anderson for co-hosting this as well and doing such a wonderful introduction. Thank you to everyone on the panel, Chris, Kristin, and Katie. Tons of insights, tons of behind the scenes here. I think it's wonderful to keep story at the front of all this and how important it is to keep listeners engaged, keep things exciting while we're seeing a shift across the industry, from audio stories to video, to new deliverables, to new ideas.

So [00:59:00] thank you for sharing all of your insights and thoughts and everything you've learned over the years here. And anyone in the audience. If you wanna follow Podglomerate you can find more about our resources for production, marketing and monetization on our website, podglomerate.com. Keep chasing all those stories.

Keep making things fun, keep them exciting, listening to your mixes as many times as possible to find out where you're bored and make things really you know tight and fun and get work with great composers, great people, great sound designers, great marketing teams. There's tons of people out there. And right now it's been a weird time for the industry, but there's tons and tons of talent out there and people who are really excited to work on fun, creative stuff.

And all of the shows here featured are amazing, amazing productions. So I wanna make sure we keep that in mind. Don't be so upset that people are bouncing around trying to find new ideas. Keep playing in these sandboxes and making amazing stuff. So thank you everyone. And I'll throw it back to Rose. 

Rose Anderson: This has been such a wonderful [01:00:00] opportunity for New York Festivals radio awards to be part of this wonderful masterclass because radio is the universal language and it lets us communicate with others in the most profound way.

So thanks to everyone and keep listening.

Katie Simon: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. 

Chris Oke: Thanks everyone. 

Chris Boniello: Thank you, everyone.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you again to Chris Boniello, Katie Simon, Chris Oke and Kristin Nelson. You can find all of their work at their respective websites or on LinkedIn, and I encourage you all to listen to all of their podcasts because they're excellent.

Podcast Perspectives is a production of The Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing marketing or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at podglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all socials at Podglomerate Pods. This episode was produced by myself, [01:01:00] Jeff Umbro, Chris Boniello, and Jose Roman.

Thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Erin Weiss, and a special thank you to Dan Christo.