iHeartMedia’s Amber Smith on What is Ruby?

Jeff Umbro: This is Podcast Perspectives, a show about the latest news in the podcast industry and the people behind it. I'm your host, Jeff Umbro, founder and CEO of the Podglomerate. Joining me today is Amber Smith, Director of Audience Development at iHeartMedia for Custom Podcasts, which is a fancy way of saying branded podcasts for the network.

As of May 2023, iHeart launched a new audio imprint called Ruby. The Ruby team's mandate is to create custom podcasts for brands in their audio division. Amber, in her role as Director of Audience Development, spends a lot of time thinking through how to bring that audience through the doors to hit play on these shows.

In this interview, we dive into how she does that. So let's get right to it.

Thank you so much for joining us, Amber. Welcome to the show.

Amber Smith: Thank you for having me. Excited to be here, Jeff.

Jeff Umbro: You have an eclectic career that brought you to podcasting.

Amber Smith: I do.

Jeff Umbro: Can you give us the cliff notes on that?

Amber Smith: So my career began in journalism. Before I jumped into podcasting, I had my master's in journalism and I was at the Today Show. I was on the breaking news and politics team during the 2016 election - so very intense, a little different than podcasting. Live TV is pretty intense. So I definitely was looking for a change.

Audio had never really been in my sphere. I'd always been broadcast journalism heavy. But an opportunity came with Sirius XM to jump over into the podcast space. This was in 2016. I knew very little about podcasting at that time, but I definitely gave myself a bootcamp, jumped in, and I loved the freedom of the medium.

When I first jumped to SiriusXM, I was a producer there when they first were trying to figure out what they wanted to do with podcasting - how can we make some of our shows into podcasts, [...] what that was going to look like, and [how we would launch] that whole thing.

And then after that, I moved over to partnerships because I realized there's this whole other side of the industry, this business side. Not a lot of people look like me on this side of the industry. What can I learn and how can I be of service bringing different voices to the table on the partnership side?

And then my journey went from partnerships to where I am now in audience development.

Jeff Umbro: You're at iHeart today and you are working for Ruby, which is iHeart's branded podcast arm. Just to put this in context: iHeart is the largest audio publisher in the world, they publish more than 800 podcasts, they own 800 plus radio stations in 160 plus markets, they have an app, they have hosting and digital technology platforms for the audio space, they run live events, podcasts alone account for 377 million monthly downloads across 30 million unique listeners... This is a really big organization.

A lot of what you all are doing on the branded side is taking the client dollars from the advertising market and putting it towards more creative solutions, more unique offerings. Can you walk us through, what is Ruby? What does Ruby do?

Amber Smith: So we have a really unique model that I think is special. IHeart is everything audio: we have the radio, we have podcasts, we have so many shows and audiences already built in to play with and really connect to. I think iHeart Radio reaches 9 out of 10 consumers on a daily basis.

So what's cool about the Ruby model is when a client comes in, what they actually purchase is media and they get the podcast as a benefit of purchasing that media.

Jeff Umbro: For a listener who may not be aware, when you say they purchase media, is that like advertising across audio?

Amber Smith: Yeah, that's advertising across audio - broadcast and podcast. So they purchase media. Their media runs, obviously, in their podcast. So they're building an audience for themselves and creating an intimate relationship with these stories that are connected to their brand, but they're also getting exposure across the iHeart network.

Jeff Umbro: And what does that conversation look like? [Say, a] Big fortune 500 brand comes to you guys and says: "I want to advertise across all of your audio properties." What makes you guys say: "we should make a podcast for this particular brand." What makes you pull that trigger as opposed to just selling ads across the spectrum?

Amber Smith: I think it's the brands who really have a story to tell. Now, I'm not as much a part of this pitch process as I am post sale - we have this show now, how are we going to build an audience for it? Once our sales team determines, "they would be great for our custom podcast product," then our team comes up with pitches based on the brand. [We figure out] what kind of show would really connect to the audience that they're trying to reach and we kind of go from there - what we think will connect to people, what hosts we think will really connect to them, whether it be talent that's already on our network, or talent that we have connections to. And we kind of build a show literally based around that.

It's a really fun collaborative process with the team. For Chasing Sleep, for example, season two, we created a whole new show for them. I don't know if you saw the news today, but the podcast increased sales by 45%. That was really cool to see a podcast have that kind of effect on sales.But it's because we created a really cool show. 

So season one of Chasing Sleep was all about unique ways to sleep - people who have unique jobs and how they can really maximize their sleep. We interviewed people who work in the ER, people who work in breaking news, a wildlife photographer who has to sit in trees for inordinate amounts of time…

Jeff Umbro: This podcast, Chasing Sleep, is from Mattress Firm. So Mattress Firm comes to you guys, they say: "I want to sell a bunch of mattresses, maybe a pillow here and there." And you guys say: "Okay, let's figure out who your target market is and let's build a show surrounding the idea of how we can reach them." What does it actually look like when they're trying to decide how to structure this show? How do they figure out booking the talent, what the structure of the show is, how they're trying to actually reach these people?

Because I imagine, while it is direct-to-consumer, they're probably not putting mattress ads in the middle of this thing, are they?

Amber Smith: Yeah. The Mattress Firm media does run in the show.

Jeff Umbro: Okay.

Amber Smith: But I think that's where Ruby comes in. We're the experts, right? We're the podcast experts.

So our EPs and producers are incredible. They build an entire vision alongside our brand partner of: who do we want to reach? What do you want this to look like? These are the big influencers in this world. This is how we envision creating a really engaging and connecting show. They create the vision for them.

Of course, there's a back and forth, there are certain things that the brand definitely wants to have in [their show]. And we create alongside them and create something really cool, which we saw with Mattress Firm really did result in trust in the brand, and trust enough to go in store, brick and mortar, [to] purchase mattresses.

Jeff Umbro: In May of 2023, iHeart officially launched Ruby as a branded podcast kind of "company within the company." Why? And how is that different from the branded podcast production that was happening since 2019 at the company?

Amber Smith: I think our team [was] growing exponentially. We grew from six people to 13 people in the span of a year and I think iHeart just really saw the value [in] what our team was creating. We wanted to stand out in the market [and say] "hey we are this original different new thing."

So we came up with Ruby as our name - iHeart, the red, the Ruby, you get it - and it's been really cool for us to have our own brand and own standing within the iHeart family.

Jeff Umbro: Do you think that is viewed the same way within iHeart as like a Black Effect Network, or a Big Money Players, or a Pushkin.

Amber Smith: That's exactly how we see it.

Jeff Umbro: And just one point of clarification, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Ruby is wholly owned by iHeart, whereas some of the examples I just gave are licensed deals with publishers.

Amber Smith: Exactly. We are just Ruby as the branded content studio within iHeart. And we also wanted to brand it because we want to be able to expand and grow with the industry. So as video podcasts become a thing, maybe we'll be creating video one day. We're Ruby now. We're a branded content studio.

Jeff Umbro: And all you guys are doing, all day every day, is thinking about branded podcasts, correct?

Amber Smith: Yeah and thinking about how to innovate - how to do really cool things with audio: what are the things we can do outside of the podcast? Are there live events? Can we connect to other iHeart live events? What other ways can we connect our brand partners to really cool audiences in new and unique ways?

Jeff Umbro: When I think of a branded podcast, to be blunt, I think of something that's kind of boring, like pharmaceutical or mattress [companies] doing a chat show with somebody who works at the company and maybe a customer. You all do not do that. You do really clever concept shows that bring people to the table.

How do you differentiate the work that you all do and some of these smaller branded firms that are specializing in that? And then also, how do you convince the companies to do this? That probably isn't very easy.

Amber Smith: No, it's not. We create with them. We walk along with them. Like I said, we come in as the experts [and say:] "hey, this is what we see really works." We have the benefit of having the iHeart podcast network to play with. So we have all this data and all these built-in audiences that we know how to play with. I think that really builds trust with brands to be like, "okay, they know what they're doing, they built this machine. So, maybe we can trust them to do something a little riskier, do something a little more fun, a little edgier with our brand."

I think that's been one of the main ways that we've been able to build trust and really create some really fun, really cool content with brands.

Jeff Umbro: We haven't officially touched on this yet, but you are the Director of Audience Development at iHeart for Custom Podcasts. So what do you actually do all day?

Amber Smith: So my job is to really develop our audience strategy. Once a brand comes to us, and we have a show that we're going to create, [I say], "okay, how do I get this show to its people?"

So on a day to day basis, if I'm launching a show, I'm building that strategy. I'm having conversations internally [about] what audiences we're going to play well with. Who are we going to do host reads with? For this show, what's going to mix well with that? What kind of assets do we need to really promote this show? And where does this audience live? So really thinking critically about where these people live and where to touch them.

And sometimes it's not on the iHeart network. Sometimes I reach out to audiences externally. For example, for the sleep show, we reached out to a lot of really successful sleep shows that aren't necessarily on our network and really engaged with them as well. So [my job] is all about: how can we think within our network and how can we think outside? How can we really get this content to meet its people? And once this content has met its people, how can we optimize in real time?

That's another really large part of my job. We've launched X, Y, and Z campaigns, how are they doing? What's really performing well for us? And I think that's one really cool way to see such big success, like we saw with Mattress Firm. We really zeroed in, found out what worked, and optimized episode over episode, season over season, to really touch the audience that they were trying to reach.

Jeff Umbro: And what did that conversation look like with Mattress Firm? I know that they probably have a massive marketing department that buys ads all the time. But this is probably a new experience for whoever's in charge over there.

Amber Smith: It is, totally. So again we build this trust - we're the experts in the podcast space and they let me do my thing. But we work together with their marketing departments as well. Like, how can we work together on getting some PR? What are ways that you can use your channels to promote the podcast as well? How can we promote the podcast in stores? What are different creative ways where we can use this amazing massive platform that you’ve built to really come together and hit our audience?

Jeff Umbro: And do you think that audience development is actually any different for branded shows as opposed to working on any other type of podcast content?

Amber Smith: No. I think if you have a really good show, then it's just like working with any other type of show. It's still: where is my audience? How do I meet them? How do I get there? The only difference is the ads that run in the show are usually specifically for that brand.

Jeff Umbro: So what kind of tactics are you using to grow, for example, the Mattress Firm show? And then what kinds of tactics would you be using to grow the House of Dragon podcast with Jason Concepcion.

Amber Smith: So, for example, season two of Mattress Firm, we had two new hosts, Katie Lowes and her husband Adam Shapiro. And this was a really cool case study for me because Katie Lowes already has two shows on the iHeart Network under Shondaland. So she had a kind of a built-in audience with us and a built-in audience the brand could maximize on as well, which was really cool to see.

So we did the feed drops into her other shows. We ran spots across Shondaland, because people who are fans of Shondaland, they know Katie, and that proved to work and be really effective in this second season. So we were able to see a lot of really cool organic growth with this show.

Also, having hosts who have massive platforms of their own - like she does - the engagement we got on social assets was crazy. And what was really cool about Mattress Firm is we didn't create audiograms, we didn't do animations, we didn't do clips from the show. It was literally Katie and Adam offhand making selfie videos saying like, "we just recorded this really cool episode. I learned X, Y, and Z. Please check out the show." When they would post those, we would actually see a real boost. So that taught me a lot about what's working in the social space now.

As far as House of the Dragon, I mean, HBO makes it easy. Come on. Like, this show is a worldwide sensation, right? People are reminded every week to watch the podcast.

HBO was an incredible partner to work with when it comes to audience development because they're promoting the podcast every week when they promote the show. They're giving us really crazy, amazing assets they've made. So that was one where that relationship was just seamless working together from podcast partner to brand partner. The content and the show just meshed so well. The hosts were amazing.

We also did a lot of really cool in-person events with HBO when they'd be at a fan con and different kinds of fan events. The podcast hosts would show up and do a live show from there, or ask questions, or just be there.

So the integration and the opportunity to integrate with that brand was... It was just candy, like it was just cake, an audience development dream.

Jeff Umbro: So you have these two different ideas, one being: let's create some general awareness. We made this thing that we know people are going to want to listen to. And the other being: this is going to be a little bit harder to sell because of what it actually is, [it] doesn't matter if it's just as good, getting people through the door is going to be a little bit tougher.

So I love what you said about the more organic social clips that really can showcase the host’s personality a little bit. You can't really beat the organic nature of posting something in the moment that hits on something timely or even just builds a relationship between the host and the listener.

Amber Smith: I think one of the biggest things I've learned in the past year and a half really working on these branded shows is the host matters. The more your host is excited about what they're creating and into promoting what they're creating, it makes a really big difference.

We had a show called Mind the Business with Intuit QuickBooks this year and we had two TikTok stars as hosts. That made a difference too. It wasn't like a main driver of audience development or downloads or anything, but the days whenever host Austin Hankwitz created organic posts - just him talking about the podcast and something that they talked about - versus these video assets that I created, it really did make a difference. When you have hosts who are engaged and who have engaged audiences who really trust them, it doesn't feel like an ad.

So I think one of the big secret sauces of our team is having access to really amazing talent, and getting really amazing talent on these branded shows, so that people are already coming in as a fan of a certain personality, or have a certain trust of this personality. [It helps to create] a show that doesn't feel like a big fat ad, but really feels like stories that we're connecting to and that we're interested in.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah. That's so tough in a lot of situations. People are coming to you with a lot of money, presumably, to make these shows. So it's out of reach for some companies, but the principles remain the same: the idea is to make something that somebody would actually want to listen to.

It's so interesting to think about the ways in which you all are doing this with the information, the scale, and the resources. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is how do you all measure success? Clearly, some of your shows are really driving conversions to sales, and I'm sure that's a big metric for you.

But let's really break it down: what KPIs are you guys looking at? What tools are you using to measure that?

Amber Smith: So I think with each brand it's different. They have a different goal with creating a podcast. With Mattress Firm, the goal was to build that awareness to get more people in stores to buy mattresses. And that was really great. We do brand studies. Usually the brand is also doing studies along with us to see how effective this media is.

As far as me, I'm using, probably, what everybody else uses: Chartable, Omny, Triton, the basics. I plan and strategize pretty episodically. So for me, success looks like: a new episode came out, but my whole catalog grew. I'm seeing growth in my whole catalog. I'm seeing new people discover and then stay for more than one episode. How are we creating engaged, loyal listeners? Those are the kind of KPIs that I set for myself.

But for each brand it's different. Each partner has a different goal. Sometimes we work with pharmaceutical companies where we're zeroing in on very small, specific audiences. So it's not how many downloads we can get, but are we reaching those people, and how are they responding to the content?

Jeff Umbro: We spoke to Harry Morton of Lower Street and he had a comment where the addressable audience for some of the shows that they work on may only be 500 people. So if they can get 400 of them, that's a massive success.

Amber Smith: Yes, exactly.

Jeff Umbro: And so at what point in the process do you come in? At what point do you all start thinking about audience development?

Amber Smith: As soon as they sell through. I'm part of those initial kickoff calls when we're thinking, okay, what audience do we reach? What hosts do we want? I'm giving my suggestions and I'm thinking about what kind of assets we want to create. What do we want our art to look like? Where are these audiences living and how can we build the show to really reach them? Are there certain episodes we can do to really reach X, Y, and Z?

So I'm there pretty early and I'm working pretty hand in hand with our producers shaping the vision of the show. And once we have that vision locked down, then I'm full speed ahead on strategy for the season. How are we going to launch?

Jeff Umbro: It's so interesting to think about how you all consider branded podcast production. Cause to be blunt, you have the privilege of being able to come up with an idea and then actually go and do it. Whereas that's not always the case.

And I know that Ruby is new, it's only a few months old at the time of this recording, but from what I can see, it seems like you guys are really making strides in the right direction and frankly, setting a precedent for the rest of the industry. So kudos to y'all.

Amber Smith: Yeah, I will say our leadership is really committed to telling good stories, no matter who's coming on. How can we really tell good, engaging stories and be anti-boring branded content?

Jeff Umbro: Yeah and not to say that is rampant in the rest of the industry or anything, but this is hard. It's really difficult to do this.

Amber Smith: Yeah, it is a challenge. But I think having that commitment from our leadership and having that trust with the brands really does make a difference.

Jeff Umbro: So I have one last question. Now that you've just said that, how do you approach a brand when you get the sense that what they want to do is not the right move [to make] the best product. What are your tactics for having that conversation?

Amber Smith: So, like I said, we frame ourselves as the expert, right? And we are the podcast experts. So if there's something that they're stuck on, that we know just really won't work, we try to back up what we're saying. Because we're not just like, "just trust us." That doesn't work. It's like, "let me give you examples of why that doesn't work and what could work better, or what has worked better, from either work that we've done, or work we've seen in the industry." so we really try to be able to back up what we say.

Because a lot of them are just learning. They aren't deeply knowledgeable about the podcast industry and what works here. So really framing ourselves as the expert and bringing the receipts, so to say. This is why this will really work for you. And this is why this is a really risky, maybe not-so-good idea.

Jeff Umbro: Exactly. To your point, when I first started the Podglomerate, oftentimes [I'd have] conversations with clients - they trusted us to do the work, and to do it well, but it took a little while before there was the blind trust. And a big part of the reason that ultimately happened is because they just saw the results.

Listeners can find Amber at LinkedIn or you can head to ruby.iheart.com to learn more about what she's working on.

For more podcast-related news, info, and takes you can follow me on Twitter @JeffUmbro.

Podcast Perspectives is a production of the Podglomerate. If you’re looking for help producing, distributing, or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at the Podglomerate.com, shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com, or follow us on all social platforms @podglomerate.

This episode was produced by Chris Boniello and Henry Lavoie. Thanks to our marketing team: Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Annabelle Pena, and Vanessa Ullman. And a special thanks to Dan Christo. Thank you for listening. I’ll catch you next week.