NASA Program Lead for Audio and Podcasts Katie Konans on Connecting NASA to the Outside World

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff Umbro: This week on Podcast Perspectives. What is one fun fact about space that blew your mind while making all of these podcasts?

Katie Konans: Astronauts onboard the International Space Station as they're orbiting the earth. They see 16 sunsets and 16 sunrises every day.

Jeff Umbro: Today we're diving into the world of space storytelling with Katie Konans, NASA's program lead for audio and podcasts. Katie has played a pivotal role in shaping NASA's audio strategy, launching and managing hit podcasts like NASA's Curious Universe, which brings the wonders of space exploration to millions of listeners worldwide.

From capturing the sound of space missions to making complex science accessible, her work is revolutionizing how NASA connects with the public. We'll explore how NASA tells stories through sound, the future of audio at the agency, and what's next for space podcasting.

Welcome to the show, Katie.

Katie Konans: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Jeff. I'm happy to be here.

Jeff Umbro: So I wanna start by just having you explain what your job is.

Katie Konans: My job is to help NASA tell its story through audio and podcast, so I oversee creative strategy and distribution across the agency's original slate of shows at NASA.gov/podcasts. And I'm also involved with any campaign that has a very heavy sound focus.

So you know, first microphone recorded sounds from Mars. How do we release this? That's the type of project that I support. And also working with external partners. So Apple Podcasts, Spotify. We have a Space Act Agreement. NASA has a Space Act Agreement with a radio station in Texas called Third Rock Radio. So I work with them a lot, manage our, our SoundCloud page, fun, things like that.

But my goal is really, and my job is really to engage with audio and podcast consumers and bring them into what the agency's doing in science and space.

Jeff Umbro: From my vantage point, there's really like two major ways that you are doing this effectively, and one of them is actually helping to produce the podcasts that NASA puts out that help to educate the listeners and to find audiences for those podcasts and such. And then the other is just having a presence within the community of like, you know, the audio world and the podcast world.

And you guys have done activations recently at a bunch of conferences and you bring, you brought an astronaut to Brooklyn to talk it on Air Fest. And you know, you let Reggie Watts manipulate the sound on, on this cool synthesizer device that you have that's based on, you know, the Hubble. My big guiding question on this whole interview is why does NASA care?

Like, why do they want to do this?

Katie Konans: NASA does care. In fact, I, I find myself just in the company of people who care so much. I'm so inspired by the people I get to work alongside. They're incredible. I think, you know, most people come to NASA because they wanna make a difference. They wanna make a positive impact and do good in the world, and so that feeling is just palpable working at the agency.

Also, it's federally mandated. So in NASA's establishing charter, the agency was charged with communicating to the widest practical audience about what the agency is doing. You know, and I'm not sure if you've, you know, if you saw recent confirmation hearing, for example, with Jared Isaacman, but he shared about how it's so important that we not just educate, but really inspire audiences, inspire, you know, next generation of future space explorers, and that is the communications work that NASA does. You know, when you think about that NASA reference, whether it's a visual of a cosmic image or you know, that iconic audio clip from Neil Armstrong, you know, a giant leap for mankind, that is the result of the communications work being done at NASA.

Jeff Umbro: I literally feel more patriotic right now than I ever have. And your specific role is basically managing the ability of the agency to do that, correct? You're helping to manage the strategy of, of how you guys do what you do and why, and, and the, the people that you need to help you do it. And is that mostly accurate?

Katie Konans: Exactly, yes. I work very closely with people who are experts in their fields and we're able to connect all together and say, okay, what would be the most impactful way for NASA to share this story? And I think that's what you know, we have really seen, and even what I've seen with the podcast landscape at NASA, you know, when I came in there were a lot of products, or there were a lot of different podcasts that were focused on, little pockets around the agency, you know, different centers and different missions, and that was the focus.

But there was no like one NASA podcast that really told the agency story from that perspective. And so I was able to come in and build that proof of concept, which is now NASA's Curious Universe, our top performing show. I think that with all of the ways that we communicate, this is something that we think really critically about in NASA's digital community.

How are we making sure that we're telling stories that are impactful and that represent the agency as a whole?

Jeff Umbro: So you have four podcasts, and Curious Universe is the only show that's you know, a more produced narrative, nonfiction storytelling show as opposed to interview podcasts that you all put out. And I always ask this 'cause we get questions about this from clients all the time, but everybody wants Curious Universe.

What most people end up with is everything else, and it's usually a question of just resource management. What you can realistically do and put out on a weekly recurring basis. Was there more to the decision than just resources? I'm just always curious like how people come to the slate of shows that they at.

Katie Konans: Ooh. Yeah. You're asking all the burning questions here. So with Curious Universe, what it really was a response to is, again, when I came into the agency, there was no podcast strategy or program. That didn't mean there weren't any podcasts, there were tons of podcasts. There just was no strategy. And so Curious Universe was a proposal to, to help the agency right size as strategy, and I can remember when I started, I, I would be looped into a lot of planning calls with people, you know, across disciplines. And there was this desire to have more of a Q and A focused podcast, which we already had several, you know, Houston We Have a Podcast existed at that time before Curious Universe was released. But again, Houston We Have a Podcast, it's great for NASA super fan, but they tend to really focus on human space flight. The launches and the landings and the astronauts, the crew that supports those missions, and though they covered that there, there wasn't really a show that covered all of the agency stories, you know, being able to hop between science and human space, flight and engineering and really provide a podcast that could share NASA's story at that scale.

And so I remember being in conversations where people were asking, you know, how can we create a really impactful q and A style podcast. And even I heard on one call someone share, you know, who is the Joe Rogan of NASA? You know, he's so, I know, but I think like that is a sign of the time too, because this was in, you know, 2018 and people were looking at his work and saying, Hey, he's really effective at engaging with people.

Who is that person at NASA? And I think that was the level of detail that people were starting with and, and trying to develop a new podcast strategy while I was fresh off of a fellowship at NPR's Georgia Public Broadcasting. I was really, you know, I kind of had my bootcamp training in public media. I had my degree in journalism, so I really wanted to take, again, this was also supported by industry experts that I had the chance to connect with about NASA's positioning in this space.

But my proposal and my direction was one that was more about brand journalism. So as you kind of me, you mentioned, you know, Curious Universe is reported, it's narrative. I see it as a, I see really the audio and podcast program at NASA as more of a blend between brand journalism and public media. You know, it's very public facing.

And so the idea was then to, and this is how I approach all of my projects, what's the biggest and the best and most exciting thing we can make? And then as things come down like, oh, hey, you know, we don't really have the resources, we don't have the people to support this, it's then we can start paring down.

But I always like to start really big, and I remember with the initial proposal for Curious Universe, it was a really big and bold vision, but I'm so thrilled that we were able to continue with it, and we've been able to really preserve a lot of what that initial vision was. One of the early shows that really inspired Curious Universe was Overheard from National Geographic.

I think it's just such, you know, and sadly, that show has been sunset and that that team disbanded. That was such a great example of teaching people, but doing it by bringing them on an adventure and bringing them inside an organization. And so, You know, that influence, NPR podcasts, and the way that different NPR member stations kind of report out to headquarters, and then those things are kind of lifted, I, that's very much in the undertones of how, at least on a personal note, I approach the audio program in NASA.

Jeff Umbro: Well, I'll tell you what I, I just listened to that episode on the Hubble, and I had to take my dog for an extra walk because I, it was my driveway moment. I didn't wanna turn it off. So it was, it was really, really fun to listen to.

Katie Konans: I love that.

Jeff Umbro: Why podcasts, when NASA has, you know, video, text, and everything else in between?

How do you think about your podcast listeners as separate and cohesive to the other media initiatives that you guys have?

Katie Konans: It's true. NASA has a lot of compelling videos and launch broadcasts and images. When I think about the difference and the value added though, what I like to share, and I think that this, this can really help drive it home is, you know, when you think about NASA, you may picture this like stunning image of the cosmos, right?

You know, you mentioned the Hubble Space Telescope, this incredible photo that you can just visualize, you know, or maybe you've seen, maybe you follow NASA on Instagram and you keep up with the, you know, the image of the day that's released, for example. I mean, you feel very captivated by that. Our podcasts are an opportunity to go deeper into the story, so that cosmic image that you love just because it's, it's beautiful, it actually changed everything about the field of astrophysics, and we're gonna connect you with this scientist who spent their entire career working towards this breakthrough. So you can really get the impact of what this image means for the science community and really for humanity and driving us forward.

Jeff Umbro: Picture's worth a thousand words.

Katie Konans: Absolutely.

Jeff Umbro: When you came into NASA, you helped develop the audio program.

Katie Konans: Yep.

Jeff Umbro: Did anything exist before? I know that there was a million shows that were a little bit disparate across the whole ecosystem. How did that strategy come together?

Katie Konans: So, I'm so glad you brought this up because it's very common and the people that I do connect with at conferences and events, they're like, how did you do this? Which to those people, I wanna say I'm available to consult. So. Please reach out. But you have to take a tailored approach. I'm sure you know from universities, organizations that you work with, and the reason why you don't wanna have all of those competing products is because they're just, that they're competing.

Even if, you know, the people, the scientists who recorded their podcast really just wanted you to understand the importance of their research. We're splitting listenership. You know, we're, we're really diluting NASA's storytelling when we put it out in that way. So we can accomplish so much more together than we can apart.

And a big part of my role has been about bringing people together and making sure that they understand that just because something that you, you know, poured your heart and soul into is going away because of a strategic reason, that doesn't mean that your level of involvement in this area of communications goes away.

We're just changing the way that you're shifting into being able to share podcasts and audio stories with, with your audience. It's really hard to start and sustain and build a podcast, even for NASA, and this is something that I hear a lot within the agency as well and with other, other people who work for big, big brands or big organizations, but it's nuanced at NASA because we can't do any paid marketing. You know, we can't go out and do all of the traditional things that one would typically do if they had a budget and had a new show to start. We really have to organically grow our shows, and even though NASA has, NASA is one of the most well respected and beloved brands on or off the planet, that's one of the things our creative director at the agency says.

And it's so true. But even, even though we have that reputation at the agency, I. When you're starting from scratch, you're starting from scratch period. It can take years to build up loyal audiences. I don't have to tell you that. So we were looking at a lot of different shows that they weren't pulling in listeners and they weren't moving the needle, and so we knew that there was a better way forward.

I started out as an intern at NASA, as NASA's very first Science Radio and Podcast intern, I think is what I saw on LinkedIn. I was fresh out of school, starting at NASA. I'm coming up on seven years now at the agency, so that's something that I, I, you know, love to share just about my journey. It's not that I, you know, I had all the answers and I knew I had the playbook and I knew exactly how to move the agency forward as, you know, someone coming fresh out of journalism school with an NPR fellowship under their belt. I had, I had that reference point of working in public media that was really valuable at the agency because it was an outside perspective to an internal issue that the agency was facing. And then I'm really focused on working with people and really trying to understand, and I take very seriously the one-to-one connections.

So these are, these are sometimes difficult conversations to have of moving away from one strategy to another. But I'm someone who's willing to have, have those conversations. Let, let's have the hard conversation. I want you to understand and I wanna understand as well. And so when I think about my journey, it's been a series of those conversations.

I was also in my internship role, so I'll not, I will say that I was not developing NASA's podcast program as that intern that first term, but I was laying the groundwork for what would eventually become the podcast program. So my approach is all about gradually building, experimentation, pilot phases, retrospectives, all of that's really a big part of program development.

Jeff Umbro: One of the things that I think is, is, I don't wanna say unique to you, but I wish that more people did what you do, is that I see this sense of collaboration both within and outside of NASA from, from everything that you do. You know, we met, I. Because you were at a conference, coming to see a presentation soon after you invited a colleague and I to come down to the Goddard Space Center. And, and I thought that it would be, and, and it was an honor.

But I didn't realize that you'd also invited, you know, 10 or 15 other folks from other science podcasts and everything. And one of the many reasons that you did that is, you know, A, you want to show people the facilities and, and all of the cool things related to NASA and B, these were all people who were experts in their space in that particular realm of science or children's programming or science podcasts or whatever. And in part of why you did that, I imagine, is so that you can help to build out future collaborations and that kind of thing. And, and it is so smart that you did that and that you are doing that and that's part of your role here. And you know, a lot of people will see these as competitors and you're seeing them as colleagues where you can help get the message out.

Are there other things that you all are doing to help foster that community spirit?

Katie Konans: I love that that really stuck out to you, and that's exactly what we're trying to do, right? We wanna cultivate this, this goodwill, we're really focused on sharing the agency story, you know, through our own channels, but also with collaborators. So we wanna show folks what's happening at NASA and kind of spark that curiosity, spark that interest.

So you know, if you have an idea later on of, Hey, I'd really love to speak with this astrophysicist, for example, I can connect you. And that's part of my role as well. You know, I think looking towards the future, some of the areas that I would love to see NASA expanding more into would be in connecting with digital creators and really identifying a way to develop explainer style videos that really give people context and kind of thinking about how we can sustainably scale those programs.

It can be really tough when you're working with a legacy organization and NASA has such a strong reputation to protect. So any new areas that we flex in on, it has to be done thoughtfully and it has to be scaled right. But I do see those as areas where NASA can really expand and and meet more people where they are in consuming information in the way that they are today in the digital media landscape.

Jeff Umbro: We had to get video in there too at some point, so.

Katie Konans: Yeah, and I think there is that expectation from NASA as well. As you're mentioning, NASA's has all these great images, you know, why did you shift into audio? So now that audio and podcasting is kind of shifting a little bit more into video and the definition of what is a podcast that's changing day to day.

You know, there are a lot of conversations that we're having about, okay, how do we bring more of this into some of our other communications areas? Or how do we work with people who are specialists in video production, for example, and connect them back with our audio program? So those are some of the challenges that I'm facing right now.

And when it comes to video podcasting, for example, we, we have been experimenting with one-off episodes and we're still collecting data and kind of seeing, you know, is this of interest enough where it makes sense to really pivot, but it's hard to do that, right, with a narrative show. It's hard to take a narrative show and turn that into video.

So yeah, at least with Curious Universe, one of the things that we've been doing is testing bonus content. Where we'll do we call them the Curious Chat, it's just more of like that paired down Q and A. There's still some narrative in there, but it's not the full reported 45 minute episode. It's a little more pared, pared down, and we're experimenting with, Hey, you know, when we do those, can we capture those on video and then add in some NASA imagery?

And so it's really a process.

Jeff Umbro: With you guys especially because you have, in many ways, just a lot of great resources. You have studios where you can record this stuff. You have amazing guests just kind of at your fingertips, you know?

Katie Konans: At the water cooler.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah. You throw a rock and you're gonna hit somebody who's won some amazing prestigious award.

Katie Konans: Nobel Prize, you know.

Jeff Umbro: And if you guys can't figure it out, then who can?

But at the same time, it's like it's a whole different medium and you've spent years building this very specific audience type and now you're kind of shifting how you're doing it. And then on the flip side, you guys already have a really robust video property platform in 10 different places. So it's kind of like, are we reinventing the wheel?

And, and I have, I have a lot of thoughts on how and when people should be doing this, and none of them are terribly exciting or anything.

Katie Konans: But you're hitting at something important, which is something I'm, I'm grappling with now. And as I mentioned in kind of more of this, you know, expanded role, looking at long form storytelling at the agency, you know. What is the agency's original documentaries? Like, what are, what are those original documentaries accomplishing that podcasts aren't, and vice versa, and just being really intentional about what is the value added across all of these channels?

How can we cross pollinate a little bit? You know, for example, if we have really strong personalities and a strong delivery style on some of our podcasts, how can we bring that into some of our broadcasts? And how can we take perspectives from our documentaries and bring them a little bit more into our podcast?

So really kind of looking at it from that perspective. And it's exciting. It's, it's fun and, and I prefer to be like building as we go. You know, one of my, my bosses, he said, You know, Katie, you're, you're always like building the bicycle as you're riding it. But I like that space. I think that it can be really disruptive to take an organization that has been really stagnant and task everyone with, all of a sudden you're going to, you know, re-envision everything and experiment and iterate. But if you have that perspective from the very beginning, your, your team is going to continually evolve. Your products will be better, and your listeners will notice.

So it's really important for me to invite that dialogue in every part of my, my team's role in covering NASA's story. How can we be a little bit better? How can we reach people a little bit more directly? Those are conversations we're having even.

I was in a script review earlier today and we're having a conversation about how do we really wanna format these episodes moving forward? And we're in production, you know, what's working here? That didn't work last time with a different interviewee. So it's all part of the day to day.

Jeff Umbro: And you hit a good point there. 'cause so much of it is just iterating and figuring out what works. So I also wanted to spend a minute just talking about the platforms that you all work with, because I know you just recently, a couple years ago, got on to Spotify. How has that been? Good, bad, otherwise experience?

Katie Konans: Being on Spotify, and I'll say that. You know, any new platform that NASA offers our podcast on, we have to make sure we have a federally friendly terms of service agreement in place. And that essentially means that the platform is not going to put any advertising on these free educational resources. We really wanna make sure that people can access our stories and the agency stories, and they don't have to go through a paywall.

Our addition to Spotify is a little more recent because it takes some time to work out those agreements. Since we've been on Spotify, one of the things I've loved so much is, is how that platform is helping us engage with people who are very passionate about music and audio books, and they go to that platform to really engage around some, some other types of audio files, and we're able to share NASA's podcast with them.

And really NASA's presence, it goes beyond podcasts. Last year I was able to oversee a campaign between NASA and Spotify to engage around Spotify Wrapped. And so I was working with the Spotify creative team and the NASA's communications team to engage around this campaign. And the reason why the agency wants to do that, right, is that we are immediately able to get NASA science and space and engineering in the minds of people who are music enthusiasts.

And that's, you know, maybe you are a music enthusiast and you're really passionate about the universe. Like Reggie Watts you mentioned. We know that he's both, but for some, some folks that's not the case. So, you know, it's really important to be able to, to be creative with how we're working with different platform partners such as Spotify.

So we're able to work with them ahead of their Spotify Wrapped reveal. And record an interview around music and podcasts and culture with an astronaut onboard the International Space Station. Nick Hague, who fun fact, was the very first astronaut I ever got to interview when I started working at NASA.

Jeff Umbro: How many astronauts have you interviewed?

Katie Konans: Oh gosh, I've lost count at this point. Um.

Jeff Umbro: Wow. What a what a humble brag.

Katie Konans: I know it is this, this is totally a thing at NASA where they're like, how many astronauts have you spoken with? They're like, who? It's funny, but you know, they'll always say, Hey, we're just normal people just like you, but come on, they've been to space. That's pretty cool.

This is kind of where I go beyond just the audio and podcast. Now I'm working on developing, you know, digital products and Instagram reels, and so that reel with Nick Hague was posted on Spotify's Instagram and you know, in its first week, got over a million views and those million views, yeah, they're coming from music fans and all of a sudden they get to know a little bit more about NASA and I think that's really cool.

And the digital division, we've worked on things like sending the first hip hop song to Venus, for example. And these are things that just like, they add delight, they add joy, and they, I guess they, they inspire people to kind of lean in and learn a little bit more. And so that's like the special area to be working, working in.

Jeff Umbro: It is very cool, I think with YouTube and, and Spotify doesn't get enough attention for this, but the tools that they've put together for podcasters and everybody else really maximize discovery for people on these platforms. And Apple as well, of course, but.

Katie Konans: We love Apple.

Jeff Umbro: They're, they're the best. They're the OGs. But you know, when it comes to really innovating in the space, it has recently been Spotify, it has recently been YouTube.

And these are the kind of mechanics that you can't really easily duplicate with, with other industries. With an organization like yours, everybody already, you don't have to teach people what NASA is. You know, you just have to put it in front of 'em and four outta five people are gonna click it 'cause it's cool.

Katie Konans: Yeah, because it's cool and I think, you know, people have this positive association with NASA, but oftentimes I find they're not as up to speed with what the agency is currently doing. And so there's a lot of like this historic reference point that people have. And so a lot of my, my team's responsibility is to make sure that people know and are excited about what the agency is working on today.

Jeff Umbro: I'm probably one of the folks that you're hoping to reach in the sense that I'm not up to speed on everything that you're doing all the time. I'm still just as fascinated by this as, as most other people would be, so.

Katie Konans: Absolutely. Yeah. And if you hear NASA as a podcast and you're like, oh, I'll check it out, like that's exactly what we're trying to do, and welcome you to the party and convert you to a space nerd, but you're already a space nerd, so making my job a little easier.

Jeff Umbro: Katie, thank you so much for joining us. This was awesome.

Katie Konans: Yeah. Thank you so much, Jeff. It was really fun to be on.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you so much to Katie Konans for joining us on the show this week. You can find more from her on LinkedIn at Katie Konans, or you can head to NASA.gov/podcasts to listen to their shows.

For more podcast related news, info, and takes, you can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff Umbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of The Podglomerate.

If you're looking for help producing, marketing, or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at Podglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com, or follow us on all socials at @podglomeratepods. 

This episode was produced by Chris Boniello, and myself, Jeff Umbro. This episode was edited and mixed by José Roman. And thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Annabella Pena, and Perri Gross. And a special thank you to Dan Christo. 

Thank you for listening and I'll catch you all in a few weeks.