Case Study (Part 2): How to Grow Audience and Sustainable Revenue with NHPR Podcasts

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff Umbro: Hey folks, this is Jeff Umbro. Thanks for tuning in to Podcast Perspectives. This week on the show, we're going to present part two of a case study that Podglomerate did with NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio and ONA, the Online News Association about how to grow audiences' sustainable revenue with NHPR podcasts.

The first part of this case study was published on this feed last week, and that was myself hosting a webinar with Katie Colaneri, NHPR’s Senior Editor of Podcasts, and Dan Barrick, NHPR’s News Director, all about navigating the threats to journalism with NHPR's, The 13th Step podcast. If you haven't listened yet, please go check that out before coming back to listen here.

This case study was moderated by Podglomerate SVP of Marketing and Audience Development, Joni Deutsch, and included Rebecca Lavoie, NHPR's, Director of On-Demand Audio. In it, the two discuss the playbook for how successful and sustainable podcasts are marketed, financed, and distributed. Not to mention how to activate your own owned and internal channels for audience growth success.

This is meant for journalists wanting to jump into the audio field or a network looking to scale their podcasts. Joni and Rebecca are industry pros, and in this, they share all kinds of tips and tricks for how to launch successful podcasts, whether you're from an NPR station or a journalism institution.

Thank you as well to the Online News Association, or O-N-A. ONA is the world's largest digital journalism association connecting journalism, technology and innovation through virtual webinars like this, as well as their online news association conference, which is taking place this year, September 10th to 13th.

That's 2025 in New Orleans and their online journalism awards, ONA supports the work of journalists, technologists, executives, students, educators, and digital media change makers. You can learn more at journalists.org. Let's get to the case study.

Meghan Murphy: My name is Megan Murphy. I'm the program director at the Online News Association.

We are so excited to have this session about audience building and revenue generation and marketing around awesome podcasts today here. This session is part of our focus in 2025 on resilience for the journalism industry. We're thinking about that in terms of how we build new revenue streams and new products to engage our audiences, and also how we make journalism a a better place to work and, and, but build resilient careers in journalism.

And we are hosting a range of conversations over the course of this year on this topic. We will also be focusing on it in depth at our annual conference, which is gonna be this year in September 10th through 13th in New Orleans. And so, we hope to see many of you there, and we hope you'll see tuned for more.

But today's session actually, it, it came out of a conversation that I, that I was having with Joni Deutsch, who I'm gonna turn it over to in just a second from the Glomerate where she was telling us about some of New Hampshire public radio's awesome podcast work and, and and their award-winning podcast, the 13th step.

And wanted to talk about some of the work that they've done to shore up their podcast business and, and build new audiences that way. And we, we were talking also about the ways that this podcast in particular has, has really been ha has kind of another side story of organizational resilience involved with it because of some some attacks that came against the reporting and, and that, that the organization has had to deal with unfortunately.

And we did a part one of the session talking about this, a few weeks ago, and just in a minute I'm gonna put the link to that recording in the chat for anybody who missed it. It was a really, really good session and gives a lot more detail about the podcast and sort of what happened and giving best practices about how to, how to do really important investigative work and, and protect the team and the reporting.

But today we wanted to focus on the other side of that conversation, which is all about growing audience and building sustainable revenue streams. And we have Joni back to talk to us about that. And I'll also New Hampshire public radios, Rebecca Lavoie, to talk about their strategy. And so, I'm gonna turn things over to Joni without any further ado to.

Give a little bit more of an intro. Thanks

Joni Deutsch: Joni. Thank you Megan. And also happy Thursday everyone who knows what day of the week it is. Hopefully you're understanding what day it is and you're having a good one. As Megan mentioned, my name is Joni Deutsch. I have worked in media for, this will be my 15th year, 10 of which I spent with NPR as a host, a producer, audience, engagement specialist, you name it.

I think a lot of public media folks can relate to having 20 different hats. That was what I was doing. But for the last three-ish years, I've been attached to the conglomerate. We're an award-winning podcast production marketing and monetization firm. And we've had the honor of representing any number of clients over the years from the Boston Globe to NPR, to PBS Harvard.

The list goes on. That also includes I'm very happy to say New Hampshire Public Radio and Rebecca Lavoie. If you wanna learn more about the Podglomerate, our services our ideas about the industry and how to grow your show and audio in it definitely recommend going to our website. It's the Podglomerate dot com.

We also have case studies and free resources there as well. But you're not here to really hear about me spiel about websites and like you're here to talk about and hear about. Podcast resiliency, audience growth, monetization. Basically how we can create sustainable revenue sources and audience engagement in a landscape that on a federal level, on a local level, on a digital level.

To be honest, it's a little un unstable, right? So Elephant in the room. We actually came up with this webinar series about public media podcast long before what's been happening with the CPB defunding conversations. So if anything, I am so happy that we're having this webinar today with you and everyone that's attending because it is, it's vital that we have these conversations to figure out what next steps can be that we can control.

So excited to be able to host this webinar today on how to Grow Audiences sustainable revenue with NHPR’s podcast. And well, as luck would have it, I have basically the heart and soul of NHPR’s podcast team. Well, she's one of many, don't get me wrong, but Rebecca Lavoie truly is, just at the intersection of public media, NPR podcasting, but also the other side of it being for-profit podcasting.

So she is NPRs director of On Demand Audio. So she is overseeing the strategy of so many of the shows that they have produced over the years from Bear Brook, which is one of my personal favorite podcasts. And I've also had the pleasure of working with it, but also other shows like the 13th step outside in Civics 1 0 1 and then.

Separate from her NHPR work, she actually does for-profit podcasting by being the host and one of the talking heads, if you will, of Crime Writers on, which is a great podcast of basically criticism and editorial review of true crime media. So. All to say she comes from both worlds. She has great dual perspective.

Rebecca, thanks for spending your time with us during your lunch on a Thursday to talk about all these things. I'm thrilled to be here, honestly. Well, you are amazing and I just encourage everyone here, Rebecca, is about as much of an open book as you can get in public media and in podcasting as in myself.

So please don't hesitate. Put your questions in the chat for Zoom. If you have a question about audience growth strategy, you wanna talk about public media and what the landscape's looking like right now. Money. Likewise money. Of course. That's also why we're here today. And we'll get around to it.

We'll likely have about 15 minutes or so at the end for q and a. So again, feel free to put your questions in the Zoom chat. We'll get around to them. But our goals for the next hour are so full. We're going to try to really get into the heart of how to significantly grow your podcast audience. Whether you're launching a new show or you've been around for a bit in the podcast sphere.

What's like the secret sauce to be able to create sustainable podcasting in the sense of not just the creation of it, but the monetization, the revenue generation through membership and grants, but also just audience growth. And what are the things that, especially right now is there's a little bit, a fair amount of instability in the ecosystem.

You can safeguard what you're able to do and protect your team so that way you can grow not just your content, your department, but also your storytelling abilities. It's a lot to get into. We'll buy it off pieces at a time. So Rebecca, for those who may not be aware of how NHPR as a. Public media and NPR Member Station.

How NHPR has been able to construct its podcast division and the resources they're in. Can you share a little bit about that and maybe even how long it's taken to get to this point?

Rebecca Lavoie: Absolutely. So we've been making a podcast for 10 years. At NHPR we started with a podcast called Outside In, in 2015, which honestly was kind of an offshoot of a talk show that I used to work on as we took some of the members of that team and just had them work on this new project.

And it was originally designed by our CEO to be a radio show. And I was just pushing for podcast, podcast, podcast the whole time. And ultimately I was able to make the case that if we put it out as a podcast, we can just test it. You know, the things don't have to be a particular length, we don't have to fit a clock and we can test the content.

And then the podcast became really popular and that it kind of stuck being a podcast. And we do actually have a radio version. We're gonna be launching a weekly radio version of the show this summer. But that is an offshoot of the podcast. It's not. A radio first product at all. Then in 2017 after Donald Trump's first inauguration, we started civics 1 0 1, which started as a segment on the same talk show and then spun off into a podcast 'cause it was very popular.

That segment. Then in 2018, someone in the newsroom had this little tip about new science around solving crimes. And actually he got that tip in 2016 and I yelled across from, I was then digital director from my desk. Like, that's a podcast. And that, that's what became Bear Brook, Jason Moon worked on it.

He was a work reporter in the newsroom and he worked on it on his own for like half days on Fridays for a year. And then when it was clear there was something really there, there, we took a producer from another team Taylor Quimbee, who I've worked with since 2010 and had them make it together and add to date.

There's only 19 episodes in the feed and it has 37 million downloads at this point. Mm-hmm. And that doesn't include it appearing in other feeds. So. The construction of our team right now. It looks like this. We have Civics 1 0 1 and outside in our weekly shows. Each show has four people working on it.

Outside Civics 1 0 1 is more like three and a half because I also did the edit. I always oversee the editorial for that show and I do other things here at NHPR too. So I'd say that three and a half on Civics 1 0 1. We also have it, the document team, which is a newsroom team comprising two people, Jason Moon and Lauren Child, and their editor Katie Culinary.

They are responsible for. News-based shows, usually stories based in New Hampshire of national interest. So in addition to Bear Brooks season two, after that team was assembled, they've made the 13th step, as you mentioned, it was a Pulitzer finalist and won a DuPont Award. Jason made this year the Youth Development Center, which was just a Peabody finalist.

We have a wonderful podcast that came out a couple months ago called The Final Days of Sergeant Tibs, which is about a cat, but it's not really about a cat supervision, which is about somebody who's out on parole and then death resulting, which is a story about somebody who was, was charged with murder because they provided drugs that caused somebody to die.

So our teams are very lean. Everybody can do. And I would say this is a huge part of our sustainability. Almost everybody can do almost everything. The skill sets. Everyone's a utility knife. Some people more equipped than others. Jason Moon, for instance, scores music for all of our document podcasts.

Bear, that's a beautiful job of those music compositions. Yeah. And you know, we have experience mixing, sound design reporting. Everyone can do everything because we've, they've all been here a really long time. We've managed to maintain the same core staff for almost that whole decade and grow it a little bit.

So that's a big part of it. And another big part of it is that, you know. The document team is three people full-time, as I've said. However, when it comes time to release a story or, or getting close to releasing a story they bring in for group feedback and group edits. People from the newsroom, they bring me in, they bring in a couple people from the podcast team.

So the team becomes big when it needs to and stays really small the rest of the time. And that's kind of how our other two teams are too. We try to keep them as small as possible. With, with sustainable work life balance, it's like how small can this team be? But people can still work regular hours and take vacations and do all the things that you should be able to do if you're an employee of an organization and enjoy their jobs.

Like, that's a huge priority to me is enjoyment. You know, sustainability and retention. Those are like my three huge priorities when it comes to maintaining these teams. And I think the

Joni Deutsch: fact that some of the names you're mentioning here, like Jason Moon is, he's gonna be hitting what, more than a decade, nearly a decade of working at the station.

I think it's

Rebecca Lavoie: about 10 years. He started actually as an intern actually a fellow, which is the same as an intern. But yeah, he worked in the newsroom. He worked at a talk show live Daily Talk show. Then he worked in the newsroom on some politics stories and, and then he became a little bit ga in addition to his politics stories, and that's when the Bear Brook tip came his way.

But yeah, we have everybody working on these shows except for Nate Hedgie. I. He was a new outside in house new, he was hired like three years ago at this point. Has been here for at least seven, eight years and Taylor and I have been here for 15.

Joni Deutsch: That's amazing. And I think it, it, again, it speaks to sustainability and resiliency can apply to any number of things related to, you know, an institution outlet.

But you're right of Rebecca, I think having sustainability of how you create an environment that's supportive and feels like, you know, it's not becoming like, just a, a bad thing you're entering into day in and day out. That's something to avoid and it sounds like you all have been able to do that.

So yeah. One thing I wanted to mention for folks here, I know that when Rebecca mentioned Bear Brook specifically or some of the other shows and how they've gotten millions and millions of downloads critical acclaim to the level of like some of the most prestigious reward or awards in the landscape.

Amazing. We know that's not one size fits all. I do just wanna give the stat because the next question I'm gonna have, Rebecca, is about goal setting. And I wanna make sure this assists everyone here with your goal setting for your podcast, no matter the genre, the type, the frequency. So for reference, an industry benchmark when it comes to success of a show based off downloads, is that if you're able to get within seven days of an episode release, if you're able to get about 30 downloads of that episode, within seven days of its release, you are already basically in the top 50% of all podcasts.

If you're able to get, let's say, more than 5,000 downloads in a seven day period at that episode, you're already in the top 1% of podcasts. So something to keep in mind that when you're going back to the heads of your stations, or if you're trying to advocate for why your show deserves a second season, more resources, you can say that yes, the Joe Rogans, the dailies, the color daddies of the world, they are at the top of the charts.

They are getting probably billions more than that downloads. But to easily just get into the top echelon of what the industry is considering the best 5,000 downloads in one episode, in seven days time, that will get you there. So, Rebecca, goal setting, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how while you've had this division set up of the document team and just general podcast how do you determine what the goals are for success goals based off downloads, goals based off money, revenue generation, membership, and who is a stakeholder in that conversation from HPR?

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah, so that is mostly on me. I, I, as the leader of the team, I own revenue and I own audience. That being said, the work drives both of those things. No member of my team is responsible for how many downloads we get, how much money we make, however, they are responsible for following editorial guidelines that we know lead to those things.

So for instance, outside in used to be a much wonkier show, used to be a book. Both outside in and Civics 1 0 1 used to be bi-weekly. And when I took this job, I'm like, both shows have to go weekly. How do we make that happen? Because for audience growth, for, you know, people expect their companion to be there all the time when it comes to these kinds of shows.

So it was a matter of getting the team there. And then with outside in, in particular, there's a lot of editorial changes that we made when I took over the podcast team in 2021 which was. Think like a listener and not like a journalist. Think like, what would you choose over the entire other menu of stuff and hit play on.

Especially if you subscribe to 50 podcasts, you know, what's the episode title? What's the, you know, how do you write the log line? And that's made a huge difference. And my goal for outside in, when I first took the job, I was, it was, it was an old podcast at that point, it was six years old. And I was like, if we maintain this and grow it by five or 10%, this is after we have the new weekly show benchmark audience number, we're doing great.

'cause this is an old ass podcast. And that is a rare thing. Same with Civics 1 0 1. And we also make similar editorial decisions, but both shows have grown by about 50% in that time. So it's been hugely successful to focus on the listener and to set goals around that. In terms of revenue, I think about the document team.

Their job is not to generate revenue if they generate revenue. It is on the, I mean, ad revenue, I mean, the document team is generating revenue for our organization by existing. They are a, a team that does deeply reported investigative projects. And Sergeant tibs only has something like 60,000 downloads in its own feed right now.

It's also in the document feed, which is a strategy we can talk about if you want. Mm-hmm. But that is a piece of journalism that's reaching people all over the country. It has an endless tale of discoverability because it's never gonna, it's not ever, it's, it's an evergreen story. And we can go to major donors and say, Hey, nobody else is looking at the the abuse in the youth development center in New Hampshire, but Jason Moon did, no one else is doing this kind of journalism.

And we pitch it to donors and other stakeholders as journalism, not as support our. Podcast, we say this is long form journalism. No one else in the state is doing it. No one's putting the time into it. You understand why it's important. We're holding people to account. And so is that part, is that important to you?

Do you think that should be something that you should support? And they say yes. So their existence and their work is the revenue generator. Bear Brook does make a lot of money, don't get me wrong, but that's not because we're actively doing anything with it. It's because of relationships we've built with Apple and stuff and they feature it.

But you know, my hope is that that podcast continues to be discovered for years. 'cause it's like a passive income stream for NHPR between Jason's work being put in the feed. But yeah, my goals are modest every year. My growth goals look something like 5% AudienceWise. That being said, it's not so that I can you know, beat them.

It's, it's, you know, I'm not making them easily attainable. It's that to me, I. In a market that's expanding so quickly, maintaining your customers is much harder work than than, you know, getting, than, than it was, you know, 10 years ago when there were only so many podcasts. So I set modest goals. We do really well against them, and I, and I think the key there is to not make it the responsibility of a reporter to worry about that.

That's on me. As long as they agree their episode title should be what we say it is and not what they think it should be. So that's, that's kind of how the conversation around goals goes here.

Joni Deutsch: I wanna go back to the, the major donors for a second and how you are trying to create a, a, a good pipeline of materials that you sent to them or shared with them and how you're getting their buy-in to help support the journalism long form journalism.

You mentioned through the podcast feed, how far in advance are you planning that out? Like let's say for example, bear Berg has maybe season three. This isn't confirmed, just saying hypothetically Bear Book has season three coming

Rebecca Lavoie: 26. It might, it might, by the way.

Joni Deutsch: That'd be great if it did. Love to work on it.

At what point are you reaching out to major donors to let them know that Jason and the host is working on this new season? You already have some ideas of it or, you know, reporting that's working through to get their support and lock it in so you know that it's, it's already generating revenue.

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah.

We have a content tracking document that's internal that all the managers of every department has access to. So it's just a Google sheet and it's not specific and granular. It's literally, there's a three to six month section up to 90 days section, and then an immediate section. And it will include things like three to six months we're going to be announcing whether or not there's gonna be a barefoot season three.

But that reporting won't be done probably for another year or 10 months, or maybe longer. I don't know. But it's something that gets in the development officer's mind. That they can say work, we use examples of what we have 'cause we're doing work like this, but they can feel like they are part of something that's coming.

And then we have, in the past, I think our development team has, we've given them license to send out things like episode descriptions. And one episode I think we said we think we shared an episode of Was Not 13 Step because we had release all those at once and that was very much under luck. I think it was death resulting that our major donor pool had some advance.

Episodes of, but that's, again, that's really the, the development team strategy. But they have access to the, the ideas that we have and you know, I put the next five upcoming episodes of outside in and civics 1 0 1 subject to change. It's very important to say, 'cause they are so they have a sense of what topics they can add to their pile to talk

Joni Deutsch: about.

Got it. So it sounds like you're, you're, you have a good relationship with that department, you're, I try feeding them as best as you can. Breaking down silos as we all try to do. You're giving them information as much as you can give them, recognizing TBD asterisk, things can change and they're able to confidently go out and make those conversations with whomever they think would be a good stakeholder or a good supporter of that piece of donors, granters

Rebecca Lavoie: major donors.

And right now we're in a big, we're in a big donor push. We're actually doing a capital campaign Right now. We're in the soft period where it's not public yet. But this is a big conversation and again. It's really, really important to understand how to talk about this journalism with donors as journalism.

It is journal, so our outside in is like, I call it the Trojan Horse of En of Environmental. Like it's a really fun entertaining narrative show that also has some environmental content in it. Like we've cracked that code of getting people to listen to environmental journalism by making this show. Same with Civics 1 0 1.

It is a Trojan Horse of truth. That's what a teacher called it. And I've always, I've stolen that term. That's great. Because they can use it in classrooms and it's not a book. So parents cannot com don't complain about it, but it's journalism and the selling point is. We are going beyond the radio. It is also on the radio, but we're doing this journalism that's reaching people all over the country and has a huge impact.

Isn't that amazing? The word podcast often is a turnoff for some people. They, they still think of 'em as being very new. You know, it's like investing in a VC or like being, you know, a venture capital fund or something. It's not that for us at all. So we just talk about the, the story, not the, the platform.

Joni Deutsch: Yeah. And I, I assume that also relates to the audience because if you're looking to maybe a different demo of a person or organization describing it as, you know, sound rich, investigative journalism is going to resonate with them differently than if they've never listened to a podcast. Maybe they've heard of the, the term podcast, but they don't know what entails, why people are interested, why it's engaging.

So the framing mechanism is important there. I wanna pivot away from major donating, but donors and, and, and gifts in that way. But for the audience here, again, thanks for joining us. Questions, feel free to put them in the chat. We'll get around to q and a in the next 20 or 25 minutes. But Rebecca, about the feed and monetizing it with ad sales, one of the things about NHPR that makes it unique in the public media podcast ecosystem is that you're utilizing a different system, or I should say a more rare system, a rarer system for how you're getting ads placed into, you know, bear Brook, 13th step YDC outside in all these shows.

So tell us a little bit about the process of how you negotiated that within the station and what the results have been to date.

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah, so I'll start with the results. We're doing pretty well. Our team, you know, and just, just, just add revenue. It's the equivalent of a large, very large fund drive or two fund drives, like this year.

Wow. Make a little over half a million dollars, I think in our, our ad revenue simply for, simply from the podcast. Nothing else simply from the podcast, nothing else. And so what we do here is we participate in the commercial podcast ad space. There was a long period of time, I mean, bear Brook honestly could have made the station millions of dollars if we had been doing this since the beginning.

And this was a big point of conflict in this station that I was a part of a really long time. But most public radio stations will not do traditional host red call to action ads in their shows because they're very tied to the FCC rules of the radio. And they also feel like, it's somehow tainting the journalism that if, if a, if a, a journalist reads an ad for HelloFresh, that it's tainting them in some way.

The answer is listeners, the audience knows the difference between journalism and an ad. For HelloFresh. The listener of our podcast listens to a hundred other podcasts in which the host reads an ad for HelloFresh. So like, they're not thinking Nate is tainted. They, that's an internal barrier that it took a long time for the station to cross.

The other one was having our. Local sales team was really hell bent on selling ads in our shows. And that sort of kept us from getting together with a really great monetization partner because they won't allow that. And when I took over the job, I made this plea to our CEO. Listen, someone in Kansas does not need to hear a Toyota of Nashua ad.

They just don't. So not only are we holding ourselves back revenue wise, we're actually not serving the audience. Because when you work with an agency like we do, we work with Sirius, formerly Stitcher. They're targeting ads to the people who are listening to the show. And yeah, people might skip ads, but they should at least be skipping ads that are for them and not for somebody who lives in Nashville and New Hampshire.

So that was a big conversation. We've been on 1, 2, 3, we've been on four platforms. We started with Audio Boom and we went to Megaphone. We were with PRX for a little while, and then when I started, we moved over to Stitcher, which then became serious. And we've been working with them ever since. And you can, you know.

Take out categories of ads. Like we don't do political ads, we don't do financial speculation, we don't do wellness claims. You know, there's a bunch of stuff that, and, and they ask us, you know, would you take a campaign for this bird feeder that has like a camera on it? Yes, I would because that's something we can make fun content out of.

But we'd like babble and all these things that are just like their products people buy and use. And then of course there's all of the digital dynamic inserted ads, which are like for McDonald's and Ford and whatever. And I, I think the station was expecting a lot of pushback to that from the audience.

And I can count literally on half of one of my hands how many emails we've received complaining about McDonald's or another ad in the show. It's been universally accepted because again, it's just like every other podcast they listen to.

Joni Deutsch: Yeah. And for those who are thinking, oh my gosh, handful of, of complaints, it's horrible.

Bear in mind that is billions of downloads across various podcasts that Rebecca is talking about, where she's received those few complaints, which I think statistically is stellar. And for those that are also hearing about like the platforms or the external partners, Rebecca's mentioning Audio Boom, PRX now currently the shows are on simple cast.

I would just encourage everyone here, knowing where you're going to place your podcast content is so important to knowing how you're going to measure your success and growth, and also monetization as, as Rebecca's mentioning, so. If you're currently on a platform that is not giving you access to certain bits of download data demographic information on your audience, the ability to have whether DAI or attribution tracking associated with it, so, you know, conversion from one platform to your show, I would encourage you to do some research.

I'll put a link in the chat for a resource of sorts because there's so many hosting platforms, megaphones, simple, cast, Omni R 19, the list goes on and on. That can really help you fine tune your strategy so you know that you're hitting your market, you know, growth, your goals. Let's talk about marketing.

Rebecca. Because you have made sure that NHPR has basically a budget item, a a line budget for marketing services, which selfishly, that has been going to the glomerate. Thank you so much. How did you make that case for NHPR to dedicate resources to an external agency to market the show? And like, why has that been something that you've continued to bring up or to utilize for your service or podcast?

Rebecca Lavoie: Well, it was an ROI conversation. You know, we had, we have a marketing team here that is focused on station based marketing to drive membership and engagement with the community. They have no idea how to market a podcast like, and they shouldn't, that is not their job. And. Podcast marketing the best techniques for it changed so quickly.

We could certainly hire a full-time person here to be that person, to do promo swaps and, and manage, you know, the pixels and all the stuff you're talking about and knowing what size art needs to go on which platforms and how to get a feature on Spotify and so forth. But that's a full-time human being, which is a lot more expensive than running a couple of marketing campaigns a year.

And we're very and specialized.

Joni Deutsch: Yeah. 'cause you're right. I mean, that is something that, that is not a traditional marketer that is specifically a podcast marketing audience specialist, which just because you put a billboard out on an interstate near your city, that technique could be fine for a very local thing.

But effectiveness in the podcast market where your audience is international or utilizing certain platforms or apps, very, very different. So, sorry to interrupt. No, that's

Rebecca Lavoie: okay. I mean, I'll say. I'll just say you guys, because that is you guys. They, the understanding also audience affinity you know, do, would you, we should do promos on these 20 podcasts, promo swaps.

Let's, and let's utilize, you know, we basically do these things called triangle swaps all the time. We launch a new project, we use something that's already popular as currency. So you can have a hundred thousand impressions on Bear Brook if you put this promo for Sergeant Tibs in your very popular show.

So that's, you know, we've been doing triangle swaps with all kinds of people both through you and on our own WNYC. We do, we've done it with WBUR. We've done it with commercial outlets. And it really works because people podcast listening is largely driven by two things. One of them is word of mouth.

The other one is the podcast being in front of people when they're listening to a podcast. So either displayed on the app, a feature on an app, or. Their trusted and favorite podcast hosts saying they should listen to it. So those are like the two ways that that discovery is driven. And I'll just add there, what's, what's really important to me is to also participate in the, in the podcast like space.

I've been going to podcast conferences for years. I know the people at Apple I can email if I'm really hoping they'll pay attention to a new project. And that only works if you are actually participating in the space. And even if you're a non-commercial outlet like us, go to very commercial conferences and meet the people who can help you and who are where you want to be.

So that's something that I think is also very, very important. Yeah,

Joni Deutsch: relationship building has been one of my favorite and most recommended. Areas for anyone that's wanting to grow, not just in media, but podcasting. So for those that are wanting to join, like the ONA Women's Leadership Cohort, which I've been alum of, please, you know, send in your submission materials when it opens up.

It's an amazing place to be a part of, but to also what Rebecca's mentioning, the events associated with podcasting or audio from podcast movement to on air fast to, if anyone wants to go to London short notice next week, is the podcast show in London. That's, which is more of an international event.

Those are all great ones to just know, you know, what are publishers in the space you can get connected with easily in person cross promotional opportunities. The apps and platforms that are there, you can see about earned features in. I just put a link in the Zoom chat to one of our resources that kind of shows all the 20, 25 events that you should bookmark and look into.

Some of which have like free ways that you can attend. In regards to marketing, I just wanna say this to the group because this could easily be a week's worth of in-depth tutorials and well, we don't have time for that necessarily, although o and a bring us to the conference this fall and we can do it in person.

I will say that the things that we have done, not just for Rebecca's shows, so with, you know, the Bear Brook or outside in, but also with any number of clients we represented from Netflix to PBS to NPR have been mainly these elements. One is what Rebecca was mentioning, it's your owned and internal media.

So if you have preexisting podcasts or email newsletters or social media channels, your radio or television broadcast, any number of things that your brand or show is currently attached to. Leverage them. Make sure that you've a coordinated effort of when you know a series or episode is launching and utilizing something hopefully with an attribution link or a pixel.

So that way you are not only letting your audience that's already bought into your brand to a certain degree know about your podcast and activate them to learn about and listen to it. But you're also able to see the conversion data from the attribution link to know how many of them are coming over to the podcast feed for the first time.

So again, leveraging those internal properties already. For app features, a lot of apps out there are still allowing for pitches and they're pretty public about where you can submit them to if you're not friends with the Head of Apple Podcast. But to be Rebecca's point, what we found is that podcast feeds.

So in another podcast feed, like a promotion of your show in IT, or podcast apps like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music. That is where people are finding out about podcasts more and more so. And lists

Rebecca Lavoie: and silly listicles.

Joni Deutsch: Yeah, listicles are great. And I say that's great for SEO. So if you're on a listicle, that's the best outdoors podcast and you happen to produce outside in outside in at NHPR, you're on that list.

You're gonna be on that list for a while, and when someone searches for that topic, they're gonna find you and listen to you. And that goes into publicity. So what do you have available to you in terms of the content of the show, the guests that you know are gonna be coming up, just elevator pitch that you can put into a Google Doc, an email and send it out to trade publications, regional outlets other podcasts that are in a similar genre or region to say, Hey, do you wanna feature this show?

Do you wanna interview the host? Do you want to do something to be able to cover it? Those matter and cross promos. Find another show, whether regionally, topic, audience specific, and see if there's a way to do a cross promo with them. It could be that you exchange 30 seconds, 62nd scripts, which, let's be honest, if you're working in radio, you know how to write a script because you do it for radio spots.

So take that, give it to an external person. They'll put that in their feed. You do the same in yours, or maybe it's an episode drop. You take your episode, you give it to them, they give you their episode, you, you know, put in your feed. It's a great way to be able to leverage audience growth because again, not every audience out there or listener is only listening to one podcast.

Statistically, they're listening to anywhere between six to eight or more podcasts as part of their diet every day. So don't feel like it's competition, it's collaboration. Going back to relationship building the very beginning, that was a lot of marketing ideas. Rebecca, what else from marketing has been helpful for you and the various podcasts that you're working on that you've seen market growth around?

Rebecca Lavoie: We've seen a lot of market growth around, and I don't, not everyone is in this situation. However you can, you can pitch them from externally I understand is NPR has really been a great mm-hmm. Channel for us. They have the NPR app, the thing to know about NPR and if there are any NPR people on here just know that I'm saying this with a lot of love and respect.

They're not making. Really anything new anymore. They're not making narrative shows specifically. They're not making news driven narrative podcasts right now. They are very hungry to feature high quality content on their app because it drives engagement in their app. So, you know, we can say we have this amazing episode of Civics 1 0 1 coming up about the Manchurian candidate, which is a little bit off format for us, but we do stuff like that all the time.

You know, civics through a movie or something that we know will have appeal or that's tied to the moment. Like, you know, we got an episode in the 22nd Amendment coming up and I can just send an email and say, Hey, you guys should listen to this. They've told me that podcasts over 20 minutes between 20 and 50 are the ones they wanna feature on the app.

So I keep that in mind and it's. Huge for us because a lot of people become listeners to our shows and then stay listeners on the NPR app. It's not like they are listening here, but then a lot, a lot of them also listening to episode of the show then go to their Apple app and subscribe there. 'cause that's where they keep their menu of podcasts.

So that's been really helpful. One thing that's interesting that we've noted is that we also pitch NPR to get on the radio a lot. 'cause they'd have like two segments a week where they feature podcast journalism. Yeah. Like we can addition, I think it's Sunday is usually when they have that one. Yeah. Yep.

And, and they don't really drive. We see a huge bump when we're featured in the NPR app in a certain way. We don't really see it when we're on the radio, but our thinking is that is the mission that we are actually trying to accomplish, which is to get our journalism in front of as many people as possible.

So it's paying off in that way. And it's something again, that we can brag about, about the show that we can use to drive membership or donors or grant. Grant granting organizations, we can say as featured on, you know, NPR seven times in 2024 or whatever. So there's a benefit to doing things. That's what the outside in radio show's gonna be about.

We're gonna distribute that or make it available to stations to use. I'm not thinking we're gonna make money off of that. I'm thinking we might get a few new podcast listeners, but we're getting the journalism in front of a whole new set of people

Joni Deutsch: and you can leverage that to then encourage podcast listeners because with, let's say the note of we were featured this past week on NPRs here now, or We Can Edition or in The New York Times, doesn't have to be radio either, even though they may not see a bump in listens from that, that's something you can leverage into the Pitch to Apple Podcast to say, Hey Apple, I know I sent you the note a week or two ago about the feature of the show and brand new show, new episode, but I wanted to let you know that.

We got featured on NPR this past week. Do you want to now feature us? Because, you know, what is it? A crowd attracts a crowd. So they'll then say, oh, so it looks like other people are interested in you. Yeah, I think we will feature you. So just continue leveraging what you have available to you. If you hit a milestone, you hit a hundred episodes, you get a million downloads, you get featured in this outlet, you're named the best of you.

Get an award. Continue to just meet that flywheel of promotional value for yourself. And I actually just put a link in the chat because we do have some questions here in the Zoom chat, which we'll get to in just a moment for how to get your show featured on podcast apps. So go ahead and check that out because some of those ideas of like relationship building, whether in person or online or you know, finding the submission forms they can be found in that resource.

So let's go ahead and start with questions. Rebecca and I might pepper in some additional ones we haven't gotten around to on my side, but let's start at the very top. We had a question here about from Pamela about Rebecca you mentioned. Podcast, your podcast, NPRs podcast or heard across the country, and if you can explain how you make that happen.

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah, well, it's partially marketing being available to listen to anywhere across the country, making sure that you're on every app you can get on. But also, again, finding podcasts with audience affinity that is made somewhere else or that is just a national distributor and really pushing relationships and promo walks with those audiences.

Also, there's also another trick in terms of the content itself. You have to be talking to a national audience in order to appeal to a national audience. So KQED is great at this. This is something that we think about all the time, even when we're doing a hyper-local story, like the Sergeant T story, you don't say I report on blah, blah, blah.

In Manchester, you have to say Manchester, New Hampshire, which is about 20 miles south of the capital of the state. People who are local don't care if there's more context and a description and information about their own community in your show. A reporter doing a feature might not do that. 'cause it takes time and it takes away from the nut of the content.

But if you're orienting a national audience to why they should be listening to this local story it really helps and it helps be inclusive in this is something you should be interested in. It just happened to have happened in this place. And the sense of place actually is a real audience driver.

People love visiting different places that they will never visit when they listen to a show. We do outside in stories from all over the country. Our, we have a travel budget, so we've done stories in Alaska and South Carolina. We did one in Ireland a couple months ago. And people love that experience, so that's been really helpful for us.

Joni Deutsch: Yeah, I, when I was working at the NPR, what used to be the NPR one app team years ago, and they rebranded in the last year to be the NPR app altogether, when I was working at them years ago, one of the things they really wanted to have. Podcast producers and shows focus on is how. The content they're making, and a digital feed available to anyone, anywhere can be a representation of what is done locally.

But then to your point, Rebecca, widening out that focus, the framing of it, so that way anyone feels like it's accessible to them. So just bear in mind folks that you know, it's a little bit of a nuance here of if you're creating the show or helping market it, but whomever the intended audience is, or how you're wanting to grow the show, make sure that's accounted for with how you're framing it, how you're pitching it, why it matters to that person out there, whether they're in the same state as you, the same zip code, or maybe to Apple Podcast or other folks in other markets.

If they're gonna feature your show, why? Why is it timely? Why is it newsworthy? Why is it something they should focus on now? Basically just like with editorial pitching, you know, why is a reporter pitching this story? Is it urgent? Is it time sensitive? Is it interesting? Unique, same thing applies with how you're growing the show with marketing.

A question here, Rebecca about the breakdown for the podcast me between how you're getting funding for major donors ads and grants. So do you have a sense of percentages for each of those categories?

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah, I'd say right now, if I'm gonna look at like the total revenue we're bringing in, probably now, keep in mind I don't have, the only revenue goal I have is the one between me and my boss about how much ad money we're gonna make.

I don't have a goal around how much major donor donor money we're going to bring in because a major donor person in our development team might be talking about other journalism and including our podcast in it. So you can't, unless like somebody says, I wanna write this $50,000 check for outside in that's not something I would put on my own chart, but I would say right now it's probably.

70% ad revenue maybe a little bit less there with a capital campaign going on. It's a little harder to talk to say that because we are getting some people writing big checks with our podcast being pitched. But yeah, I'd say right now about 70% of 60 to 70% of our, our direct revenue. Now, the one thing to keep in mind about this journalism team that I think about all the time and that I talk to stations about all the time, is that there is no other content team in the station that is, that is bringing in direct revenue.

There's none, and nobody puts pressure on any content team in the station to generate. Their own revenue. No one's saying to our political reporters, how much revenue are you generating with this, with this storytelling? Like nobody is doing that. Somehow. In a lot of places, podcasting has been, the pressure has been put on these teams that if you don't pay for yourself mm-hmm.

We're gonna cut you. I'm very lucky to work at an organization where my boss has really bought into the idea that if we are like a holistic pie chart of journalism, we are, the podcast team is part of that. We're just as important as any other content making, news making unit. But we have the added benefit of being able to bring in additional revenue, which actually makes us in some ways.

We're supporting more. So, you know, there's a whole, and, and reaching more people, like my team of nine is reaching four times as many people as our whole radio station of 60. So there's like, there's something to be said there about impact, about the benefit of doing this kind of stuff. And yeah, that's the conversations that we have here.

Joni Deutsch: Yeah, and I think it, it's, it's, you're right, unfair that whomever is like the new kid on the block. So in this case, podcasting is still relatively new compared to a lot of the other departments, like traditional radio broadcast or television or print. And just because they're the last one in doesn't mean that they need to the, the first one out or to justify their existence when, you know, so long as you're hitting whatever the mark is of, are you creating great content or are you able to do something that is different but still part of the whole of the institution.

So from what I'm hearing, Rebecca, it, it, this isn't a conversation necessarily of why should podcasts be at NHPR. It just happens to be the added bonus of you do a great job, you do make revenue so to confirm, and HPR is not saying or, or you're not saying that. Well, let, let me reframe this.

Is the revenue that you are generating is that able to sustain the podcast department? As it is.

Rebecca Lavoie: I don't know. And it's not, and it doesn't matter. That's the honest truth. I'd I'd say maybe sometimes, maybe not. But it also shouldn't and doesn't matter. That is not why you should be doing this. If you're us, you have, when I talk about goals for why you should podcast, for some outlets it will be revenue for some outlets.

Like the Daily was started to drive subscription. Mm-hmm. To the New York Times. It was, it was started, I dunno if you've listened to the Daily Way back when, but it used to be bar Barro in the newsroom chasing people around, trying to get them to say what they just worked on. And the reporters sounded super annoyed by it and I loved it.

That was to me, the golden era of the Daily. But that's why they made it. It was the goal wasn't to make a ton of ad revenue that they saw that as a bonus. The goal was to make more people want to subscribe to the New York Times, 'cause they were featuring their journalism. So you have to decide why you're doing it.

Who it's for. You shouldn't have it just to have it. And once you have it and you're trying it, keep it manageably sized, don't blow it up and make it huge immediately. 'cause then you will be the department everyone's looking at and putting a lot of pressure on. And and then, you know, figure out on top of all of that, now how can we figure, make money on this?

Like, now how can we, you know, should we be doing membership drives in our podcast for us? We do 'em, they don't really bring a ton of revenue, but you know, our development team is like, Hey, an extra five grand is an extra five grand. Great. But you know, we're thinking about launching a Patreon for for outside in because we sort of understand how the audience has a relationship with that show.

And I feel like they might be more interested in investing in say, an ad-free version than our other shows. Mm-hmm. So that's creative stuff and it's kind of on me and I do, I. I do do think sometimes that the creators are skeptical about initially, like I added in a second ad break in Civics 1 0 1.

'cause the show is hugely popular. We have sometimes, some of our episodes were very long and I'm like, we're leaving money on the table if we don't have two ad breaks. That's, that's what it comes down to. So that's kind of the balance. But I have no idea if we pay for ourselves or not. And just like our political team has no idea if they pay for themselves or not.

That's how it should be.

Joni Deutsch: I wanna touch on Patreon for a second before we get to the next question. For those listening that do have nonprofit backgrounds or are currently in public media, I. If you hear Rebecca mention Patreon, you may kind of shutter a little bit thinking, well, isn't that what we do with our pledge drives?

Is that not the same of asking for memberships or donors to make a contribution directly to the station? I would just say that this is similar to the conversation of the worth of podcasts as a digital medium in a traditional broadcast institution where there's a little bit of reticence around why are we investing in this when we do great content in other ways?

The audience is changing, the demos are changing the needs and how those audience members want to support or find out about this content are shifting. So just because you are looking to Patreon or to like another similar platform to raise those funds or encourage a relationship with an audience, it doesn't take away from being able to still do the pledge drive and have a tote bag at the ready.

It just means that you're aware of the fact that one type of vehicle to sustain a show could have been great a decade ago or a year ago. It may not be as timely or as relevant. Now it's

Rebecca Lavoie: not audience focused. That's the thing, asking people to support New Hampshire Public Radio through our podcasts, which a very tiny percentage of them listeners are in New Hampshire because New Hampshire only has 0.2% of the population of the United States.

Asking people to support New Hampshire Public Radio as a, as a nonprofit journalism, local journalism outlet is an impractical proposition. And it's like denying the audience the opportunity to just support the thing they love, which is your show. I don't care at all if a Bear Brook listener doesn't even know who NHPR is, I don't care.

It's great if they do, it's great if they think of us as a place that makes great shows and they want to listen to everything we put out. We have plenty of listeners like that, but that's not the majority of podcast listenership. It's like saying the majority of tv TV viewers watch severance. They don't, A tiny percentage of people Yep.

Watch severance and then it dominates the conversation. Yep. And podcasting is very much like this. There's a lot of, it's a big wasteland. There's a lot of HGTV equivalent. Junky shows out there. And podcasting. I love HGTV, don't get me wrong. I watch it all the time. I made a podcast about it once. But we are in that space.

We have to remember we're in that space. And someone who subscribes to your Patreon is probably subscribing to other people's Patreons. They know how to use the platform. They're used to the platform and they want to support this show. They don't care about your station.

Joni Deutsch: Yep. Agreed. They're agnostic.

They're just there for the good storytelling. Next question, and this is, I, I love the number of people who are attending today. The number of questions we come in. I'm not gonna give everyone necessarily individual shout outs, but I do just wanna say Mia, who is just promoted, brought on I should say hired as the new executive producer podcast at Slate is here, and she asked a really great question.

She said, Rebecca, I love what you said about making your reporters responsible for the content, not the numbers revenue. Can you talk a little bit more about what you, as the person, responsible numbers, revenue, advise those reporters on besides episode titles and log lines?

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah, so a big part of it is being very transparent about the impact their work is making on audience and on revenue.

So while the outside in team is not responsible. For how many dollars the show brings in. They know how many dollars their show is bringing in. They know how many people are listening to their work. I guarantee you, everybody who is working on a show at your outlet wants people to listen to it and wants it to make money.

That's what they want. They want that to happen. So if, if you are just communicating about it, saying very transparently, like not your job revenue mine, but good news, like the show made $20,000 this month in ad revenue, that's good news for them. It makes them feel valued. It makes them feel like people are listening.

It makes them sort of understand that their work has an impact. I mean, they are working in this little, you know, zoom and slack silo where they only speak to each other. They put things in the world and they hope people listen to them. What that does, the ripple effect is that, is that for lack of a more delicate word.

People on my team have become like hustlers and getting people to listen to their show. So Felix on outside in, has pitched himself to like here and now and other outlets all the time, and his stuff gets featured there. And everyone's like, why does this young, new-ish producer stuff always getting featured?

I'm like, because he's, he's the one doing the pitching. So they have this, it becomes this intrinsic motivator to have people think about the audience, have people think about their work being heard being monetized and therefore being valuable to the company. And then they just, the effect is they participate in it without it being one of their job responsibilities.

Joni Deutsch: To that note about pitching, I just wanna go back to Christine, a question in the chat about the NPR app or NPR features. Christine, I know that Jen from KQED shared a resource Jack Mitchell of the NPR app, who's amazing for collaborations like tap through promo. Yep. A collection feature in the NPR app would recommend saying Hi to Jack e Stellar.

But I'd also say that for other institutional elements of NPR, so like the email newsletter up first weekend edition or even like embedded I would just encourage you to look at whom whomever has like on LinkedIn a title or department around NPR that's relevant to that show or property.

For instance, I know that Irene, who's the head of enterprise storytelling at NPR, namely like the embedded podcast, she and the team are looking for opportunities to collaborate around content, collaborate in the sense of like a larger thing, not just taking your episode, putting it in their feed. So just.

Come into those conversations, knowing who you're reaching out to, what the question is, the idea you wanna bring to the table, and you know, if you have audio or content to share, whether preexisting or maybe net new, do that too. Again, collaboration is key here. How are we able to make this an equitable conversation?

Another question here from Laura Rebecca saying, thanks so much for the great info. We launched our first podcast at Science News a few months ago. It's an evergreen six part series with what we hope is long tail discoverability, as you put it. Any advice for getting evergreen stories in front of people long after launch?

Are there any special considerations?

Rebecca Lavoie: Yeah, so we have a show called Patient Zero that we put out in. I wanna say like 2017, it's about Lyme disease. One producer on outside in Taylor, who I work with forever, made it like he just, it was gonna be a series on outside in, and then it ended up being a little longer, so we decided to also put it in its own feed.

That podcast still gets like 5,000, 6,000 downloads a month, and it's old and he's about to insert a piece of audio in front of all the episodes that say just FYI Science evolves. So there might be some information in this episode that has in this, in this episode that you're about to listen to that has evolved.

Or this person that I found out was a total scam artist, like might be in prison. I don't know. So, you know, he, there are ways to sort of keep it, to make sure that you're acknowledging to your audience, you know, when and how you made it. But if your thing is truly evergreen, like episodes of outside in, think about pegs.

For things that, like, if, if there's something happening in the world mm-hmm. That your show has relevance for, even in some tenuous way pitch it, then like, we've pitched pitch patient zero every year. Like every time it's tick season. Like, hey, it's tick season. You wanna pitch patient, feature, patient zero.

Here you go. And also think about like affinity audiences. Look for someone who's made something similar to you. And if you don't think you're generating enough impressions to do a swap, offer them something else. Offer them a, a mention in your newsletter. Offer them you know, a. A promotional writeup on your website or something, some sort of marketing thing that you can give an exchange and also, or you can say, we're gonna owe you these impressions and we're gonna make good on it.

And we just think your audience would love our show. And that's, we take swaps like that all the time at N hpr Also, it helps our, helps keep our feet alive. You know, it's like we did a swap. We, we just did a swap with the globe. We are gonna do it the other way around, but I would've put an episode of that show in the, in the feed anyway, because it just, it's a good fit for our audience.

And I want people to discover the Boston Globe's journalism. Like, so you can, if you're a good member of the community, you can make those relationships and do those asks, but you also remember have other stuff to offer besides just access to just a podcast audience. Mm-hmm.

Joni Deutsch: It's funny how editorial can just intersect with marketing initiatives in such a natural way.

So if you're looking at the calendar right now and saying, Memorial Day's coming up, or July 4th, and I really don't wanna create an episode that week or around that week, I wanna go on vacation. What a great opportunity for you to find content that's relevant to your audience or topic elsewhere. Put it in that feed.

Make it a cross promotional opportunity, and that way buys you back some time and bandwidth and your audience is still going to engage with content relative to what you do and discover a new show in the process. And you can create that into a larger relationship over time if it does well with audience growth.

So definitely think about that and also to, you know, Rebecca's point the calendar, look at the calendar of events or topics or holidays in a year. If you know that you have something that's focused on veterans, then every year in advance of Veterans Day send that app pitch to Apple or Spotify a few weeks out to say, Hey, veterans Day's coming up.

We have an award-winning podcast focused on veterans or whatever topic you, we

Rebecca Lavoie: have an episode, even podcast. Yes. And, and create a piece of art for that episode. Mm-hmm. And send them that episode. And it might get featured in the, on the front page of Apple. Yeah. Apple just featured all of our investigative shows on the front page.

I did not know they were about to do it, and it was because of the attacks on journalism. There's somebody there was like, we really need to do reporting, like not just series, but we need to like, focus on investigative reporting. Yeah. And they thought of us and I'm like, yay. But it's because I talk to them a lot.

Joni Deutsch: Like, that's literally why. Well folks, I know that we're at the top of the hour around two o'clock eastern. I just wanna say thank you for everyone who attended today's session. Rebecca, thank you so much for your insights and just your transparency about what you and, you know, NHPR has done the podcast for everyone who.

Ask a question we did to get around to feel free. You're welcome to shoot them over to me. I'll share my email in the chat or if Rebecca's game for it. Also, Rebecca. And I would encourage you all, please support public media support podcasts. This is a great time to do so, a vital time to do so. And if you have other questions about the industry of podcasting growth, revenue generation, production I put a link in the chat to the Podglomerate biweekly email newsletter.

It is for free. We have all kinds of resources we bring out every other week, and hopefully you get to get some insights from that. And again, thank you to ONA. We've been having such a great time doing this webinar series with you. And again, thanks for everyone for attending today.

Meghan Murphy: Thank you everybody.

Thanks Joni and Rebecca. And one more plug for, for you all that I forgot to make at the top. That actually ties into this really well. We have our annual awards program that's currently accepting submissions and we, we have an audio digital storytelling category that you all might be particularly interested in.

We have lots of different categories, but I just put the link to that in the chat if you'd like to check it out. And we're also looking for volunteers to help us judge and screen the awards. And so if it's something you're passionate about and you wanna help us recognize excellence in in podcasting and audio journalism this year please check it out and apply.

We would love to have you. And and yeah, thank you both so much again for being here and and talking with us today. And have a good rest of your afternoon. Bye everyone. Bye

Jeff Umbro: For more podcast related news info and takes. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff Umbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of the Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing marketing or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at Podglomerate dot com. Shoot us an email at listen at the Podglomerate dot com or follow us on all socials at Podglomeratepods.

This episode was produced by Chris Boniello and myself, Jeff Umbro. This episode was edited and mixed by Chris Boniello. And thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, and a special thank you to Dan Christo. Thank you all for listening, and I'll catch you all in a few weeks.