Predictions and Retrospectives with 19 Podcast Industry Leaders

JEFF UMBRO:  Podcast Perspectives is a show about the latest news in the podcast industry, and the people behind it. We began publishing 16 months ago and have so far had 46 industry leaders on the show – more than half of them CEOs, all of them executives of some kind – to discuss the trends they're seeing in podcasting. In this special episode, we tapped 19 of them to reflect on this past year and share how they're feeling about the industry right now -- how they feel about the year in hindsight, what innovations they're excited about, and what makes them optimistic about 2025. We also got plenty of advice for creators.

It’s important to remember that 2024 transformed podcasting in remarkable ways.

It was a tough year by anyone's measure that included a challenging publishing landscape in the aftermath of iOS17, an industry reckoning of how to measure its audience, industry darlings like Chartable and Pacific Content sunsetting, and massive layoffs from seemingly every company in podcasting. And yet...

We're still seeing a vibrant community that’s growing faster than most other mediums. There are still blockbuster deals seemingly every other month, we're still seeing podcast adaptations to other mediums, and we're still exploring all new kinds of business models – for better and worse (plus whatever your views on AI in podcasting are). And we haven't even mentioned that – true or not – there are a LOT of people who think our industry was a huge story in the 2024 US elections.

We’re going to jump into our guest commentary momentarily, but I do feel it’s important to mention that everything you’re about to hear was recorded before the election, and before Donald Trump racked up 50M YouTube views in 2 weeks on The Joe Rogan Experience, which is why you won’t hear it in any of this audio. 

I want to just take one minute to thank you all again for listening to the show over the last year. Shoot us an email at listen at thepodglomerate. com to let us know who you'd like to hear from next year, whether it's a guest or a topic, or just to say, hi. Thank you again, and let's get to the show.

Chris Peterson: Hey, it's Chris Peterson from Dwnload Media. How am I feeling about the state of the industry as we headed to 2025? No surprise. I'm feeling extremely bullish. Podcasting is still in growth mode and I'd argue we're still in the very early stages of that. Podcasting is steadily displacing radio, just like digital TV is doing to cable. And we've got to keep in mind that AMFM is a $14 billion ad market and podcasting just isn't getting its fair share of that yet, but the tides are turning.

Look at the U S presidential election. The most talked about candidate appearances were on podcasts. Call Her Daddy's interview with Kamala Harris got just as much buzz, if not more as her 60 minutes interview.

JEFF UMBRO: Thank you to Chris. And now here is Fatima Zaidi from Quill and Co-host.

Fatima Zaidi: My favorite podcast episode of 2024 is actually the latest Call Her Daddy episode interviewing Kamala Harris.

I care less about the politics of it all, but I just think Alex Cooper's marketing team is brilliant and it's a real case study. Building real audiences takes time.

Podcasting is a marathon, not a sprint.

JEFF UMBRO: We all need to remember that we’re playing the long game. Next up is Podchaser co founder and CEO, Bradley Davis.

Bradley Davis: I think this was one of the more, if not the most significant years for the cultural importance of podcasts, mainly with it being an election year. I think presidential candidates are going on these podcasting circuits and this time it feels more like a critical strategy versus an afterthought from previous cycles.

One thing I do see that's a bit concerning is with the proliferation of clips and short form video. Which I think are great. I do think there's a bit of a risk of missing nuance and some context from an otherwise long form medium.

JEFF UMBRO: 2024 feels like the year where everybody decided that they had to jump on every video and social media platform out there. And while that's great and an amazing distribution model, most of the industry did begin podcasting as an audio first vehicle.

Social media and video platforms allow for tons of innovation, and that could be great if you are that kind of creator, but there is some danger in splitting away from what we know best. Let's head over to Amber Smith, Director of Audience Development for iHeart's Custom Podcasts.

Amber Smith: How am I feeling about the state of the industry as we head into 2025? Honestly, never better. I think that there's still so much to explore, to innovate with in our industry that it's, we're still building the playground that we're all playing in.

And that's. The best part.

And honestly, one question that really excites me about next year and the next couple years in our industry is really, how do we make audio? More immersive. You know, it's becoming this immersive experience, right? There's video podcasts, there's, you know, the audio feeds, there's the social clips, there's all of that, there's transcripts.

But like, how do we make the podcast experience something immersive that brings in all types of listeners?

How do we really innovate with our medium? And I'm excited to continue to answer those questions and really get audio everywhere. . We have yet to hit a peak or a ceiling on any of our potential.

JEFF UMBRO: And while we have a long way to go before we're going to hit the ceiling of our industry, we have been experimenting and seeing a lot of success with alternative revenue streams. 

Here is Eric Barnett, Director of Sales and Marketing at SupportingCast.

Eric Barnett: I will say personally, I'm actually feeling very upbeat about the industry as a whole. I think it's, we're at a fun point where podcasting is sort of entering a state of maturity, but I still think there is lots of room for new shows and success to be had in a multitude of different ways.

So, I think one of the themes that we've heard over and over this year is that large podcasting deals and large minimum guarantees and things like that are becoming harder to come by. Bye. but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I think a lot of companies and networks and things like that have learned how to make sustainable shows, ones that will thrive long term, and then ultimately will keep this medium and this technology that we love going for, as long as we can possibly make it a thing.

Your job as a creator, I think it's, bigger than ad sales, right? It's about finding your audience and building around them.

I think one of the really cool examples that came out from, you know, 2023 and into 2024 is like PJ Vogt and his approach with search engine, right? Coming out of Reply All. Was creating and trying something new and created search engine and you know, created a premium model pretty early into that show's tenure.

And I think what's fun about that is that the new listeners, as they were coming on board, people who subscribed to, he called them board members and you know, he is holding Zoom meetings with them where he could discuss to the state of the show, they could ask questions, they could provide feedback.

And it's a cool thing to be able to, not only give a creator. And PJ's case like fodder and thoughts for future episodes, but it's also helping the audience feel more invested in the show that they're listening to. And I think, that advice of like cultivating your audience and helping them feel like they're a part of what you are creating is one of the coolest things that you can do for your show and ultimately make it more sustainable long term.

Brady Sadler: This is Brady Sadler, co founder and CEO of Double Elvis. How am I feeling about the state of the industry as we head into 2025? Yes, it's challenging to be a pure play creator if you're depending solely on ads and sponsorships.

But those creating podcasts as a key driver of engagement across a variety of touchpoints and revenue streams seem to be popping up more and more. . For some, podcasting is a hobby. For others, it's a place to experiment and sharpen a craft.

For some, it's an entire business. And for others, it's a tool for marketing or lead generation for a product, service, or paid community. My advice is to get really clear about what role you want your podcast to play in your life or business, and then develop experiments to test and help refine your vision.

Michele Cobb: This is Michelle Cobb, Executive Director of the Podcast Academy. I would say 2024 has been a wild ride in podcasting, in weather, in politics. It's kind of been a hold on to your hat and hope that you can make it through kind of year. But I'm optimistic as we head into 2025. We're starting to see some things turn around, some more advertising dollars come into the space.

If I had any advice for podcasters at the end of the year, I'd just remind everyone to keep positive, keep networking, and keep listening.

Jessica Cordova Kramer: Hey, Jeff, it's Jess at Lemonada. I'm really excited for 2025 and podcasting. I think we're all a little nervous. It's a new day for the industry and the industry keeps maturing, but podcasting is here to stay. It's very much a part of every American's routine now. We're seeing some of the biggest leaders of our time coming on podcasts to talk about.

Their dreams, their policies, their challenges. We're seeing some of the most talented people across different genres, wanting to get into audio in a variety of ways for the first time in some cases. I was thrilled to see a president candidate come on, call her daddy. Politics aside, I just love the fact that we're trying to reach people where they are on their walks, in their cars, in their homes, and not just relying on traditional media.

So I thought that was a moment. And, my advice to podcast creators this year is keep on truckin The economics of podcasting, we're still figuring it all out. So. If you have a dream, if you want to say a thing, if you want to create a thing, do it. Figure out how it's going to pay for itself. , but don't let it stop you, whatever it is. Get out there, make your thing, enjoy it. Happy New Year to all. We're all preparing for 2025. Let's have fun.

Sharon Taylor: Hello, it's Sharon Taylor, SVP of Podcasting at Triton Digital. Ultimately I feel pretty great about the podcasting industry heading into 2025. At this point to me podcasting is a bit like the stock market, or maybe the housing market. It goes up and down, and there are quick articles professing it's going to die or it's all doom and gloom, but really it's just growing and moving through it's cycles and doing what a good industry does. 

For next year, I'm exciting to see subscription models and contextual targeting take off a bit more. And I'm still a little concerned by walled gardens and how that may affect revenue for podcasters. For any podcast creators listening to this, I think that it's harder and harder now to launch new shows and find an audience, and so my advice is to strengthen any of the marketing muscles you've got in the year ahead. 

JEFF UMBRO: We all know podcasting is this amazing vehicle to reach our listeners. But at the end of the day, a lot of people operating within the space require making some money in order to do that.  The most common way that people are monetizing the podcast space is through advertising,  which means in a lot of ways, our boss is the brand. 

Here is Matt Shapo from the Interactive Advertising Bureau or the IAB, who is going to walk us through what he thinks we need to do in order to make the brands happy.

Matt Shapo: My first thought is just that I'm feeling really excited and super optimistic. About the state of the industry as we head into 2025. Now, it's not as if I have absolutely no concerns for the future. Like so many people in this industry, I'm very mindful of the fact that a significant portion of the buying community While extremely bullish on podcasting intuitively, intellectually, emotionally, because intuitively it's easy to understand it is a medium that is bound to produce wonderful outcomes for brand marketers.

And yet, there's still a question sometimes in their minds about how they can effectively use the powerful measurement tools that do exist in podcasting to truly understand the outcomes that they're getting in their marketing. In ways that they're used to doing with some of the data signals that come from other media channels besides podcasting.

And we need to be working and are continuing to work very hard on how we can go about standardizing that measurement data and presenting it in ways from the publishing community to the buying community in ways that allow them to more effectively plug podcasting data into their media mix model so that they truly can see.

The bang for the buck that they're getting when they choose to advertise in podcasting. The good news, of course, is that when we have seen people in the buying community do that, when they have figured out through innovative methods ways to actually ingest podcast measurement data in ways that allow for apples to apples comparison between their podcast advertising investments and the investments they're making in other forms of media, we see that the results are stupendous.

JEFF UMBRO: ROSS ADAMS, THE CEO OF ACAST ALSO BELIEVES WE'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK

Ross Adams: As we head into 2025, I believe that, Podcasting is at one of its strongest points we've ever reached and experienced as an industry.

You know, new, incredible, talented creators are flocking to the space, and legacy publishers and creators still continuing to thrive. In a recent study that, that we did here at ACAST that we, teamed up with OMD, we found that podcast advertising delivers 4. 9 times the ROI compared to traditional media, making it one of the most profitable media channels out there today.

And my optimisms far outweigh any concerns I've got for 2024, but as an industry, I do think that we've got responsibility to preserve the future of RSS distribution. Well, the answer to the question, what makes a podcast is of course, constantly evolving. I do firmly believe that RSS is the foundation, the backbone of our industry and needs to be preserved to ensure the future of this podcast space.

My advice would be, you know, think beyond the podcast. In a recent, a report, Podcast Pulse that we released with Dentsu, we found that 80 listeners follow media personalities across multiple platforms, and nearly three quarters of podcast listeners will consider a brand promoted by their favorite hosts on social media, and 75 percent of podcast listeners follow a podcast host on the YouTube platform.

So these are just, you know, a few stats that prove the, incredible power that podcasts have. And that allows kind of new, new audiences, to discover, creators content and importantly, creates more opportunities for brands to invest in, in, in the work of creators.

JEFF UMBRO: And Will Pearson, the president of I Heart Podcasts, shares this optimism and believes that we are in a time of great opportunity.

Will Pearson: I genuinely feel very optimistic about it. We continue to see more people coming into the industry, more people than ever before. Not only are more people coming in, but on average, they are each spending more time listening to podcasts.

It is always a challenge to get a podcast to, to cut through. It's a very competitive space, but, I look at that actually as a, good thing, because it, it makes all of us step up our game and realize, look, you can't just depend on being able to throw a show out in the world and be able to give it a lot of promotion and know that people are going to listen to it.

People have choices and it's great that people have choices as to what to listen to. So it's, it's less of a concern and more of a just recognizing, hey, , this isn't going to get easier. So let's, we've, we've got to get more creative in terms of each idea that we put out into the world.

JEFF UMBRO: A TOPIC THAT CAME UP IN A LOT OF THE TAPE WE RECEIVED IS AI. AI has begun to revolutionize production and workflow...BUT real humans remain irreplaceable in creating compelling content.

Dusty Weis: I'm Dusty Weiss. I'm the president and founder of PodCamp Media, a podcast production agency in Milwaukee. So the question is, what is the best podcast innovation of 2024? And I'm gonna say AI, but not for the reason you think. I think that a year ago, there was a lot of anxiety and uncertainty over what the best Artificial intelligence was going to do to podcast production jobs and workflows, sort of this old existential crisis of, oh my gosh, am I going to be replaced by a robot?

And what we've seen as more and more of these AI innovations have rolled out this year is that best in class human generated insights, connections, and creativity Now, don't get me wrong, there are some really cool AI tools out there that can reliably do a solid C job at some mission critical podcasting tasks.

But having the ability to generate sub mediocre podcast content more quickly isn't going to help anyone win in the audio space. As a for instance, I'm being spam emailed right now by a developer working on an AI tool that's supposed to automate guest research and question generation. And I love that.

Not because I would ever Outsource those tasks to AI. I've got 22 years of experience doing these things. And frankly, the more AI generated hokum that's out there, The more my work, my human insight, is going to stand above the noise.

That's not to say that there aren't AI tools that are useful from a productivity perspective. Adobe's Enhanced Speech tool, really useful, really cool, great for making workflows more efficient. Their transcript generation function has a lot of potential upside, particularly if they're able to roll that out in a more Podcast functional way than they have so far.

AI can make content, but it does not do genuine human insights, connections, and creativity. And in that way, I would say that the first year of the AI revolution in podcasting has forced us all to look in the mirror and answer, are we making content or are we doing something more? And asking that question more often is good for podcasting.

Lisa Laporte: Hi, I'm Lisa Laporte from twit.tv. We've been a podcast network that's been around for almost 20 years, and I would say the best podcast innovation for our network for 2024 was simply adding AI to our workflow so that we can produce clips, show notes, transcripts, et cetera, so much faster than just doing it. It used to take us four to five hours to publish a show just to come up with all of this information.

And now it takes us 20 minutes, but let me be clear. It's AI with human intervention. AI is really nothing without a human reading it, so you still have to read through it, but this literally has saved us so many hours on editing and cut downs. So I just really want to see that continue to increase in 2025.

Odile Beniflah: Hello there, it's Odile from Ausha. I'm feeling quite optimistic about the state of the industry as we head into 2025 for many reasons, podcasting is more popular than ever. We now have half of the adult population in America, 53 percent adult Americans, listening to podcasts each month in 2024. The second reason for being optimistic is innovation.

AI is making it easier for podcast publishers to produce and promote their shows. You can have episode titles and descriptions generated for you with just one click. And on Ausha, they are even optimized for search engines. So really a big time saving there. My advice to creators heading into 2025, lean into AI to help with discoverability across the top channels like YouTube, SEO, social media, podcast apps.

Be creative, keep your content fresh, engage with your audience. To me, this is where you should spend your time.

JEFF UMBRO: As with any industry, if you lose As with any industry, if you lose  As with any industry, if you get distracted by the shiny objects that are out there, you are going to lose stability. So it's really important to focus on what you are actually trying to achieve. Here is Chris Colbert from DCP Entertainment. 

Chris Colbert: I'm feeling particularly optimistic about 2025 and what it may bring for the podcast industry. In particular, I'm optimistic about the fact that I think we're going to return to some more stability in the space. And I think we're already on that pathway. And I mean, stability from the standpoint of, I know that we've had a lot of layoffs, particularly at major companies, but even small independent companies, podcasting space over these last few years.

And I think a lot of that is this. So I think that course correction that many of us talk about of us, you know, making sure that the players are here for the right reasons, and are doing so with correct kind of financial forecasting and forecasting what this industry is and can be, and not just throwing around big dollars to big stars, which, you know, got us into some tough positions here.

So I think that course correction is going to give us that more stability and hopefully mean that a lot of these people who've been laid off will be able to find consistent work in this space. I also just love overall that there seems to be even more collaboration in podcasting lately.

And I'd say that saying that like podcasting has always been super collaborative since I've gotten here. But I think even more so, especially when it comes to ad sales, I'm seeing more companies being open to sharing responsibilities for ad sales and not just being exclusive, , to one sales network or, or to one network in general.

I'm also a little bit nervous. So, that's, that's about things like AI, particularly when it comes to the technology maybe moving faster than we can regulate it, which goes up against just my concern of people using AI to , pretend that there are other people, which we've seen in these last few years.

I think that's gonna create a lot of confusion unfortunately, as we're just trying to figure this out in the next few years. and even just, you know, different types of AI like brand safety and suitability, these things that are created by people who may just be white men, and I'm just going to single that out as a particular demographic, you know, if it's made by white men, it might not serve women, it might not serve BIPOC individuals, and not because there's any malice within the coding, It's just when it's made by particular people, it comes with a certain set of thought processes, in terms of how the technology is used, how it's analyzing people.

And if it's not being created by a diverse set of individuals or tested on a diverse set of individuals, then unfortunately those AI tools can be detrimental to other communities. Like I said, women, LGBTQ people with disabilities, BIPOC individuals. So that's where I'm a little bit worried about the AI, but ultimately I do love that AI is going to help a lot of us.

Harry Morton: Hello, my name is Harry Morton. I am the founder and CEO of Lower Street. We're a podcast agency for brands, and I'm feeling really bullish about podcasting as we head into the, the new year, I think 2024, speaking personally, 2024 has been a really great year compared to 2023, , much more positive in terms of growth, but also the industry as a whole feels much more positive and excited for the future, which is infectious.

And I'm, I'm really energized by that. It feels like in many ways we're coming towards the end of a cycle in podcasting where we saw the huge explosion that was the pandemic and the sort of necessary recalibration that has followed. It feels like the dust is sort of, beginning to settle on that.

I suppose. If there is a negative impact of that is that M&A can quite often have a negative impact on innovation.

And I'm really keen that, that doesn't slow innovation. I think with the rise of video, and of course the increasing importance of AI in all creative fields, I think it's really important that we keep up with that. But I think, you know, the good news is that with M&A, the sort of necessary reaction to that action is new companies starting up and creating really new and exciting, things. So I think we're going to see some really interesting deals being done this year. Some really cool new startups being started this year to sort of help us navigate the future of what does video mean for podcasting?

MySKU is obviously on the branded side of content. And I think there's so many opportunities there, but, for all aspects of the industry, video is a huge nut for us all to collectively crack. , and AI as well. What does that mean? How do we use it in the best way? How do we make better shows? so that our listeners can get better content.

I'm really excited to see what happens over the next 12 months. And looking forward to playing a part of it.

Bryan Barletta: I'm Bryan Barletta of Sounds Profitable, and I work with so many great partners, but the things that stand out to me the most in 2024, I would say is Red Circle's Open Rappler. So the ability to do large scale host read buys, not for 100 percent of inventory across so many different publishers, utilizing vast technology, has been really exciting.

I think that has really delivered on promises that many in the space have pushed for in the past, but this proved it out, and I've been very impressed with what they've accomplished, and the brands that they've been able to pull into the space with this type of technology.

I think that there is a strong line that we don't pay enough attention to between I'm here to create and I'm here to have a business.

I think of things like National Novel Writing Month or Code Jams and, and different things where they try and figure out and solve this thing in like a weekend or a short period of time and, and people get to be artistic and creative.

I think. It's okay to just create and I think podcasting is so fun. Me and my kids have started recording a podcast just for us. I don't even know if I'll put it on an RSS feed because I don't think it needs to be visible to anybody else, but we call it a podcast. We treat it like a podcast and we have a lot of fun with it.

I don't want to monetize it. I don't want to do anything like that. I just You know, having that memory and having that thing that I created, that I edited, that I played around with, that's exciting. The thing that I really want to get across is no one is going to invest in you and buy into you more than yourself.

And so, if you have a creative idea that you love, that you think needs to be brought to light, and no one will support you, I think a lot of people are looking for you to invest in yourself and support yourself more than anyone else, and especially first. So, try and figure out how you get something out there, a proof of concept, a first episode, a trailer, anything that shows that you're gonna do this, whether or not people are coming with you, and they should sign up to join for the whole ride.

Molly Barton: Hey, it's Molly Barton, CEO of Realm. My podcast industry predictions for 2025 kind of connect back to the way that I've been thinking about this third decade that we're in of podcasting. If the first decade was creator driven, the second decade was platform driven with Spotify and Amazon putting millions and millions of dollars into podcasting.

into the industry. This third decade, we've all been joking at Realm, this third decade is the get real decade, reminiscent of the late aughts when large companies were starting to really grapple with how to use social media. So one of the things that I think we'll start to see in 2025 is franchise IP holders using podcasts in a much more integrated way in their brand strategy and franchise.

Growth strategies. Second, I think we'll see an expansion of brands spending on multi-format campaigns rather than having podcast campaigns separate from their overall spend. And lastly, I think some of the smartest organizations you'll see, podcast, newsletter, social media, and YouTube all be programmed.

in a coordinated way, which is really, really exciting because in some cases I think the podcasts will be first and everything else will be a sort of, cut down or offshoot from the podcast. All right. Let's hope it's a great year.

JEFF UMBRO: The key lesson from 2024? The most successful podcasts still come from creators who focus on making shows they truly love.

Thank you all for listening to Podcast Perspectives this year -- I can't wait to see what new shows and technologies emerge in 2025. And if you have ideas for people that we should speak with, thoughts that you want to communicate, or if you'd just like to say hi, please send an email to listen at thepodglomerate.com. I'm serious. I would love to hear from you guys. It can get lonely just speaking into a mic. If I get two emails resulting from this, I will be a happy, happy man going into the new year.  In the meantime, we'll be back with a new episode on the world of podcast attribution technology on December 4th. We'll be speaking with Cameron Hendricks of Magellan AI and Pete Bersinger of PodScribe.

Now, I'm going to leave you with a few of our guests sharing their favorite podcast episodes of the year.

Bryan Barletta: What was your favorite podcast episode of 2024 and why? For this year, I would have to say the two part series about Bluey from 20,000 Hertz because it was a show that I've been such a big fan of for a long time and I didn't think about how easy it would be to get my six year old and even my three year old into it until there was the podcast It's a perfect episode that had exactly the type of content that they were looking for.

Something that they could relate to. And since then we've dug into even more episodes. We've dug into the Legend of Zelda ones, the dinosaur sounds, Star Wars, so many interesting things.

Bradley Davis: My favorite podcast episode of 2024 is the 2019 episode Chamoy from Richard's Famous Food Podcast.

Brady Sadler: Favorite podcast episode of 2024 I'd say the episode of the How I Write podcast from David Perel called Jerry Seinfeld's Rules for Writing.

As it sounds, David breaks down Jerry's rules and approach to writing in a really fascinating and useful way.

Eric Barnett: my personal favorite show of the year was Beyond All Repair by WBUR. It was just a really interesting narrative show, sort of like a whodunit murder mystery type of scenario that Just had a great, compelling cast of characters.

It was entertaining to listen to from start to finish. And I really love how WBUR brought that to market, right? It shows that there is still a world for a narrative podcast to be successful and sustainable and to drive revenue. And they really went out of the way to, you know, ask listeners to support a new show so that they can continue doing this type of work in the longterm.

And I just thought that was a really altruistic thing and a great thing for the industry as a whole.

Will Pearson: I really loved Malcolm Gladwell's Medal of Honor. Podcast. I didn't see it coming. I didn't know he was obsessed with the Medal of Honor winners. He's Canadian. I just, it was something that took me by surprise, but he was passionate about putting this podcast out into the world.

They are so fascinating that I don't want to pick one favorite. I just want to suggest that people check it out because, it's not a podcast that everybody's heard of. But it is a fascinating combination of history and the story of human determination and survival and resilience and just some brilliant and beautiful stories.

Jessica Cordova Kramer: I think in terms of my favorite podcast episode of 2024 in the Lemon Space, Julia Louis Dreyfus as the first guest on our podcast, My So Called Midlife, hosted by Reshma Sajani, as women who are of a certain age, midlife, we want to learn from Julia. So it was this wonderful crossover opportunity on a brand new series

Odile Beniflah: if I had to pick a favorite episode of podcast perspectives this year, it's definitely the one with Donald Albright. I, who talks about applying music industry marketing strategies to grow Tenderfoot TV.

Ross Adams: I do think actually the Acquired podcast, which I'm relatively new to did a big live show with Mark Zuckerberg. That was, that was pretty interesting  and that was obviously a relatively big moment.

Matt Shabo: It was actually published at the tail end of 2023, but I find myself thinking about it all the time. . It's an episode of the Hard Fork podcast called Mayhem at OpenAI.

It featured a fascinating conversation about the incredible series of events leading up to, as well as some of the history and the context surrounding that short lived ouster of Sam Altman at OpenAI. I'm not going to bore you with my own ponderings since I've listened to it, but I promise you that you're not going to be bored if you listen.

A couple others that I'm going to mention real quickly include a three pack of episodes that were published in recognition of Juneteenth on the Reveal podcast feed, and also an installment of the Bill Simmons podcast, and that's just from a couple of weeks ago.

In the case of that three episode arc on Reveal, those episodes are called 40 Acres and a Lie. And no matter where you might come down on the question of whether financial reparations should be paid to the descendants of enslaved African Americans, which is really a central question that each of those episodes asks, I also can't recommend them highly enough for the learning and the knowledge you can do and acquire by listening.

I mean, it's incredible. And then that last one, in the case of the Bill Simmons episode, you know, here, We're talking about something that is much lighter fare, but you know, it speaks to podcasting's terrific ability to do something else that's awesome, which is create some fun and diversion.

For anyone who listens to Bill's show during football season, you're gonna know already about the hilarious Parent Corner segment that he and Sal do every Sunday night. And for anyone who has ever been married, there is a three minute portion of the October 14th installment that is a real classic. I'm not even going to attempt to recount it.

I'm just going to recommend that you listen to it.