Laura Mayer on the Rise, Fall, and Reinvention of Podcasting

[00:00:00] Jeff Umbro: This week on Podcast Perspectives

[00:00:02] Laura Mayer: I think that there's this idea that the lack of gatekeepers tends to make it so that you can do anything and it's a good idea. But I think that you have to think about the audience listening to it. Just because something feels like a good idea doesn't mean that there will be a listenership for it.

[00:00:22] Jeff Umbro: Today's guest on the show is Laura Mayer. Many of our listeners will know her as the host and producer of 2022's hit podcast, Shameless Acquisition Target. The show covered Laura's own experiences in podcasting. Those ideas have since expanded partially into her new book, Try Hard: A Cautionary Tale of Clocking In and Spinning Out.

Laura is a longtime podcast executive whose career spans many of the industry's defining organizations, including WNYC, Panoply, Stitcher, and her own company, 3 Uncanny 4 Productions. Most recently, she served as executive producer of podcasts at ABC News, and she's currently the head of podcasts at Talkhouse.

Today, we'll be talking about the evolution of podcasting over the last 15 years, the realities of making a podcast today, and what she thinks is a part of the industry's future.

[00:01:08] Laura Mayer: In 2014 and earlier, there were sort of two different people you didn't want to have to be stuck talking to at parties. There was, like, the guy generally wearing a fedora or a top hat who had, like, the kind of water bong looking computer cigarette that was the early vape, and then there was someone who was, like, really into podcasts and making podcasts and talking about podcasts.

And the problem with both of those types of people was they ... It was, like, the ultimate, like, extreme fixation interest that, like, you're just like, "Oh, this person's just gonna talk at me, talk at me, talk at me, just trying to evangelize these things." But from 2014 and earlier to now, look how far vaping and podcasting has come.

Vaping, we're, we- we're- we've got pouches going into mouths during Senate confirmation hearings. Podcasts are TV now. So I think that there's been a significant ... It's, it's been, it's been really incredible to see just this really quick adoption of something that I think most people didn't know really existed prior, in 2014 and prior.

[00:02:17] Jeff Umbro: Well, it's, it's funny because you, you mentioned, like, there was always the weirdo at the party who wouldn't shut up about podcasts, and, like, that was me.

[00:02:24] Laura Mayer: Me too.

[00:02:25] Jeff Umbro: But now, like, and maybe you're, you have the same experience, but a lot of my friends are, like, texting me or, or at a party will ask me about the podcast industry because it has actually become mainstream, as you were saying.

You know, it's impacting elections, and it's changing, like, the ad ecosystem, and it's turning, like, to what we're gonna watch on Netflix next year. So beyond, like, kind of the persona of the people that were involved there, what was it like actually, like, making shows back then?

[00:02:53] Laura Mayer: It felt like testing. It felt like testing on every level.

From both a content perspective, you know, like the Roundtable at, at ... In 2014, you know, Serial came out in 2015, '14. '14,

[00:03:06] Jeff Umbro: yeah.

[00:03:06] Laura Mayer: 2014. So prior to Serial and StartUp, like, I think that a lot of people weren't thinking of, you know, limited run narrative serialized series that felt new. And then the Roundtable talk show, which, you know, I worked at Slate for a bit around then, like, they had really kind of in- popularized it from a big media perspective, general media perspective outside of, like, basically, like, tech shows and, like, wrestling shows.

[00:03:35] Jeff Umbro: Yeah.

[00:03:35] Laura Mayer: It was sort of this moment where it was like, oh, like, wait a second. This thing that, like, these really niche groups of audiences love could, like, go all over the place. And it really felt like there was so much opportunity in terms of what you could make, how you could make it. And then also what the monetization opportunities were.

And suddenly you were just having all these people kind of come to the previously sort of like odd table of podcasts and media and being like, "Wait a second, you guys are onto something." Like- Yeah ... it, it, it, there was a lot of optimism and enthusiasm and confusion, because I think that also back then there was, and, and you, you still just see this today, but like this, the audience development ideas around podcasting were all based on, well, Facebook algorithm, maybe that'll work.

Get a podcast on a radio station, then, then they'll come over. But that also allowed for a lot more experimentation and risk-taking that I think now is much harder because there has been a playbook developed. I think in 2014, a playbook was just starting to be considered, and it was really cool to like, be involved with that drafting and erasing and creating new ideas and erasing and seeing what worked and going through it and having the kind of You know, this, this sort of, like, enthusiasm and buy-in from people from the business side, marketing side, and creative editorial side.

Like, everyone was just really looking to, like, kinda come to the table together and, and try something new, and that was just exhilarating.

[00:05:20] Jeff Umbro: So I wanna start back kind of towards the beginning of your career, not all the way back.

[00:05:24] Laura Mayer: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:24] Jeff Umbro: You had a lot of experience at WNYC, started as an intern, moved up to a producer, eventually worked on some of their storied shows, like On The Media.

You became the first employee at Panoply, which, owned by Graham Holdings, uh, you know, sister company to Slate, eventually turned into Megaphone. Uh, why did they approach you as employee number one? And, and who is they?

[00:05:47] Laura Mayer: So Andrea Silenzi had been working on The Gist. Um, I think she was w- the first full-time producer on The Gist, and, like, she was one of the first people I'd met in New York when I moved here.

And she reached out to me and said, when I was at WNYC, and was like, "Are you perhaps looking for another job?" And at the time, I was, like, banki- I didn't, you know, I don't like spending money and going anywhere, so I had, like, a lot of vacation time, and I was like, "When I have a child in 10 to 25 years, depending on science, I'm gonna take one hell of a maternity leave."

But they had better dental insurance, and so I was like, "Sure." And then also, you know, people had been sort of getting picked off by especially Gimlet during that time. And so I went and I met with Andy Bowers, who was the person who started all of the podcasting at Slate, and I was hired by him to be, I think I was a senior producer, and I was the first, like, full-time employee at Panoply.

[00:06:44] Jeff Umbro: So you came into Panoply, and, like, what was the mandate at that point? Like, if you ask somebody today, the mandate for a lot of networks is gonna be, like, making shows that they can monetize through ad sales, and because that's their mandate, they're gonna make a lot of chat shows. Um- Mm-hmm ... that was not, not really the case 10 years ago.

[00:07:02] Laura Mayer: No, it was w- so it, the goal was to make as many shows as possible because there was a lot of advertising interest. At the time, Matt Turk was the, I think he was the chief revenue officer at Slate, but he was also working on Panoply, and that man is So good at his jobs. And he had built out the whole custom unit at Slate and had been running the ad sales, and basically had managed to get a lot of different brands who hadn't, and agencies who hadn't advertised in podcasts, interested in at least trying it or, like, tacking on a podcast buy to whatever their, like, display buy was for the, for the website, for the magazine.

And so there was inventory to fill, but there wa- it wasn't a situation where it was like, "Okay, we need to figure out how to run 45 pre-rolls per week in order to satisfy Sherry's Berries," or something. Like, it, it was just this idea of, like, there's a certain-- I think there were, like, 20 pieces of-- 20 talent deals signed.

We're gonna make those podcasts. A lot of those were chat because, you know, Slate kinda came from that background. But there were, there was also ambition to do narrative and, and, like, expensive and kind of hard to pull off narrative series. And I give Andy Bowers just so much credit because he, his background was at NPR and then he started everything at Slate.

And he definitely is someone who then wasn't really trying to, like, chase trends, but he, he, he chased kind of things that were in his-- that were part of his interest. And so he sort of had this ability to stick to the things that he was interested in, but then also with his track record and, and resume, be able to sort of Pitch things with a legitimate authority of, "I think this would be good for the following reasons," and just get people to really take l- give money so he could take risks.

[00:09:09] Jeff Umbro: So, I have two notes on that. One is that there's a really badass photo of you, Matt, and Andy from Bloomberg from, like, 10 years back.

[00:09:17] Laura Mayer: Oh, I've been wondering where that went.

[00:09:19] Jeff Umbro: You can still find it.

[00:09:21] Laura Mayer: Oh, that's so funny. Are we in... Are we near those, like, I used to call them the cry booths, like, those, like, kind of telephone booths that they put in, like, co-working spaces?

[00:09:29] Jeff Umbro: I think so, but there's, like, a big conference table, and you're sitting down. Matt's standing up behind you. I think Andy's on the other side of the table. There, there are, like, microphones and headphones in there. It's just a really, like, fun vantage point on the shot. The second part of this is that I asked the same thing to Alicia and Mia, but in a lot of ways, that vision didn't work.

Panoply/Slate eventually transitioned to shutting down all of the original content and focused on Megaphone, which they eventually sold to Spotify. From your vantage point, is it that that didn't work, or it just wasn't as profitable as the other direction they could have gone?

[00:10:11] Laura Mayer: I think both. It certainly wasn't as profitable as, you know, building a software that then you can sell whole cloth for however many X return.

But then also, I think that the... And, and this I s- I've seen kind of over and over again at different podcast networks. I think that when you are setting up deals with a lot of partners to make their podcast, but then essentially show them for a fee or for a certain percentage of advertising profits, and then, but essentially showing them how they could do it cheaper for themselves in-house if they invested, of course, people are gonna walk away.

I mean, it's, it's... You know, and I think that that was, that's still a big aspect of so many, used to be, with so many podcast networks that had production in-house. Like-

[00:11:00] Jeff Umbro: We run into that a lot at Podglomerate.

[00:11:03] Laura Mayer: Yeah Where you kind of get things going for them, you get this cottage industry going for them, and then they go and bring that to their board, and then they're doing it themselves.

And so it's harder to have those longer term relationships with especially media companies, which was a big focus for Panoply, without them being like, "Oh, well, we can do this without losing any of our money." And, you know, of course, like the, the margins are way worse on content always. But I will say that there was like a brass meeting that I was in where they were talking about buying the company that would become Megaphone, which was created by these two brothers in Australia.

And like a dummy, I raised my hand and I was like, "Well, but like, wouldn't that make the CPMs like a lot lower- ... for us?"

[00:11:53] Jeff Umbro: Yeah. "

[00:11:53] Laura Mayer: And be bad?" And then everyone kinda looked at me being like, "That's how business works. You do more of it later."

[00:12:01] Jeff Umbro: Yeah.

[00:12:02] Laura Mayer: And it -- I really think a lot about that, me being like this little like dum-dum lamb, but then also as that moment as being a real turning point for the industry overall.

Because talk about cutting into the margins for ad sales when there's few incentives to sell direct and for, for not huge shows.

[00:12:21] Jeff Umbro: So you eventually left Panoply, and this is detailed in Shameless Acquisition Target. Mm-hmm. I won't spoil that for anyone. And you went over to Stitcher before co-founding 3 Uncanny 4.

I have to ask, though, before we dive into that, what, what is the name? Where did that come from, 3 Uncanny 4?

[00:12:40] Laura Mayer: It was very foolish. We wanted to call it Uncanny Productions, but I believe there was some company in Denmark that wasn't active that was called Uncanny Productions. And then some, the series of meetings happened, and then 3 Uncanny 4- Okay

came out of it.

[00:12:59] Jeff Umbro: I was wondering if there was like some hidden meaning there.

[00:13:01] Laura Mayer: No. But- But that's -- I think that I, I remember thinking like, maybe people will think that.

[00:13:05] Jeff Umbro: Yeah.

[00:13:05] Laura Mayer: You know?

[00:13:06] Jeff Umbro: Hey, it worked. So you, you did that with Adam Davidson of Planet Money fame and Sony Entertainment. So can you spend just like a minute or two talking about that experience starting that company and then when, when you decided not to continue with it?

[00:13:25] Laura Mayer: So I was approached by a recruiter that Adam Davidson had hired because he was starting a production company, and he had a deal with them, and he basically needed a producer to, like, make his podcast. But he was also planning to create a production company in addition to that. Okay. And so I was brought on to do that.

And then over the course of a few months, we were approached by Sony to create their first joint venture in the podcasting space. And then from there, instead of just being like employed by Adam, I became a co-founder of this new joint, joint venture, Three Uncanny Four, and then we were both employed by Sony Music.

And it was exciting for me because I've always, you know, wanted to start a company, but I am very cheap and worried about destitution, et cetera. And so I was interested in seeing what kind of success could be created without having to like literally put up whatever savings I had at the time to try and do that.

And so, you know, it was an interesting run. The COVID obviously happened and, you know, lockdown and stuff pretty early on, I think less than a year. You- the JV was, I think, announced in May, and then the COVID lockdown was the following March. And then You know, we made some, I think some good, some shows that were definitely, like, made a imprint.

We were pretty early on the Epstein side of things. You know, we made a series with John Carreyrou that followed the Elizabeth Holmes trial, and he was the reporter who originally broke the Theranos situation. But I think ultimately there was some personal stuff that came in. You know, I got pregnant, and then I had a really complicated pregnancy.

But I came back to work, and we were still working remotely, and a bunch of things had changed within the business. Like, there had been the acquisition of something else over a British production company over the summer that I had my kid, and it seemed pretty clear that, you know, everyone was moving in different directions, and so I left.

And then I kind of ended up in this position where I was like, "Huh," like, "Do not have job, do have kid." But I had some savings just because, again, my husband and I are incredibly cheap and didn't go anywhere ever, but certainly not during COVID, and that sort of allowed me to be able to make Shameless Acquisition Target.

[00:15:55] Jeff Umbro: Let's talk about LRM Works and Shameless Acquisition Target. Why did you make this show?

[00:16:01] Laura Mayer: I made this show because I felt like I had, at that point, sort of seen some things in the podcast industry, and I'd been also watching, like, just so many people that I came up with either, you know, who had started working with the WNYC or different podcast companies, like, really make quite a bit of money.

And I, at that point, had felt... I started calling myself the Beetlejuice of the podcast industry because I feel like I'd worked at enough places that if someone said my name three times, I would just show up. And I was, like, kind of, you know, feeling kind of down on myself, being like, "I feel like this is all I know and all I care about.

And yet, Laura, and yet, why do I keep not succeeding in certain ways, but I'm also like totally obsessed with the podcast industry. I remain obsessed with the podcast industry. And also during that period of time, you know, it was real high times like COVID bubble of podcasts. Like all of these acquisitions were happening.

There were a ton of narrative series being made for like a lot of money, and I just was feeling like this is not gonna last long. Like this is gonna be bad. And I sort of thought that like because we weren't like people weren't socializing as much with each other, uh, so I couldn't like, you know, be that annoying person at a party to be like the Debbie Downer being like, "Guys, polish up that resume.

Think about a pivot 'cause things are gonna be bad in about a year." I made a podcast, but I also made a podcast that it was also important to me too just in this position where I like suddenly did not have a job and I had a child and I had almost like died like very literally like right before- Yeah ... I had her and right after.

I was, I was kind of like I need to make it clear that I know what I'm talking about and I haven't just been hiding behind someone else who's more well-known or, you know, great people I work with like Andy, you know, I was talking about.

[00:17:55] Jeff Umbro: Yeah.

[00:17:56] Laura Mayer: But like I had always been kind of like the number two or the number three, and I thought like it could be...

You know, I love to write. I love-- You know, I thought I wanted to write a series. I've written a lot just over the course of producing things, so I thought like, okay, well, what would be like a fun thing that might get some attention but will mainly, um amused me, and it, I came up with the idea of the show, which is I was gonna build something from nothing and see how much I could sell it for.

And so that was the gimmick with Shameless Acquisition Target. Everything was for sale, my life rights, et cetera. Yeah. And I put a clock on it where I said, by the end of the series, I need to sell everything. And then at the end of each episode, I talked about how much I spent, which was a fair bit of money, and how much I had made, which was not that much money.

[00:18:43] Jeff Umbro: Why did you decide to do this in order to find a job instead of spending that time and energy, like, applying for jobs?

[00:18:50] Laura Mayer: I was applying for jobs, and I was also- Okay ... consulting. Um, I, I s- was consulting with Kaleidoscope before- Yeah ... they had, like, officially launched, and so there was some money coming in.

Um, I also think that during that particular period of time, like, I had just had a kid, and I- Yeah ... I thankfully, like, my health stuff had turned around, but I am not someone who can just sort of sit around and, um, you know, I, I apply f- you know, I'll apply for jobs all the live long day, but, like, I f- need to feel like I'm actually doing something that is tangible or else it's very easy for me to feel like I'm not doing enough, um- Yeah

not trying hard enough perhaps. And so I kind of decided to do it all at once, but, uh, this time on my own terms.

[00:19:37] Jeff Umbro: You kinda covered the industry in the idea of, like, people making chat shows because they're cheaper and they can make more money, and then figuring out, like, a bunch of people who came into the industry last minute trying to figure out, like, the IP to TV pipeline and how the industry was suffering in a lot of ways.

It's still incredibly relevant today. I just l- re-listened. But I guess one of my questions for you when you made the show is, like, how much of that was satire and how much of that came, like the decision to make the show came from, like, a point of frustration with the industry?

[00:20:12] Laura Mayer: I think 100% came from a point of, like, frustration of people not actually talking about how things work, even from, you know, in, like, the, the company of people who are working together.

Just all of these business plans that I had seen and that I had been involved in, like, just never made any sense. And so I think that one thing that has been... is, like, probably why I, like, don't, like, own a home or, like, a small boat that I bought from, like, a Boy Scout troop with, like, a hole in it, you know, really made it, is that it's hard for me to bullshit in that kind of way, and especially for, with something that's so foundational to just the work that we're all spending our entire lives doing.

And so I think that the frustration came from, like, why is no one talking about this? And the satire element, I, it wasn't so much satire for m- I didn't intend it as satire. I just sort of wanted to figure out ways that I thought would be fun for me to explore it.

[00:21:16] Jeff Umbro: Yeah, maybe, maybe it wasn't satire. I mean, part of it was, but it was just the way in which you did it was very funny.

[00:21:22] Laura Mayer: Yeah, well, I, well, thank you. I think that what I wanted to do is to make myself the butt of the joke, just because I didn't wanna, like, be a jerk for no reason to other people necessarily. And then also, like, there's one episode where I, like, taped myself pitching my Shameless acquisition target as a TV show to these two TV execs, where I said it was like Fleabag meets House Hunters International meets Ghost Hunters or something.

And I, uh, th- there was a third show that I'm forgetting what it actually was. But, like, that was a real pitch, and I, I, I didn't go in there to try and, like, completely... I tr- I attempted to do that pitch properly.

[00:22:05] Jeff Umbro: You sold a bunch of things from this. You sold your labor by getting a job at ABC. You sold the RSS feed.

You got a book deal. You found even more critical and industry acclaim. I don't know if that was one of your goals, but it, it, it worked So I, I have a couple follow-ups, but I'll start by just saying, like, did you deem this as a success?

[00:22:28] Laura Mayer: My big thing was trying to just feel more confident standing as, like, the person, as the person who's saying stuff as opposed to standing behind the person who's saying stuff, and to try and treat myself more seriously.

Because there is, you know, some imposter syndrome, but I think that I... You know, which I feel all over the place. But if there's one thing that I do know, it's the podcast industry. I guess I needed to prove that to myself by doing it.

[00:22:56] Jeff Umbro: Out of curiosity, like, how many, like, listeners/downloads were you seeing per episode on the show?

[00:23:02] Laura Mayer: I think when I sold it, it was around 20,000 per, or 15, I think, per... Between 15 and 20 by the end. So not huge.

[00:23:16] Jeff Umbro: Okay, so you eventually moved to ABC News as executive producer of podcasts. I assume this came about because of Shameless Acquisition Target?

[00:23:23] Laura Mayer: Kind of. I mean, I think that... So they had been looking for an executive producer for a while Because my, my original boss at the time had been the executive producer, and then she got promoted.

And they kept trying to hire people, but there was a, I think, a lo- that kind of... They, there wasn't a lot of knowledge about the podcast industry from that group. And one of the producers who had been a radio producer who had moved on to the podcast side, which I think at the time was the same side, had heard Shameless Acquisition Target and was like, "She seems like she'd take a job," and they were right.

[00:23:59] Jeff Umbro: What interested you about moving into legacy news?

[00:24:02] Laura Mayer: Well, I, I mean, I grew up, my pa- I remember I have a twin brother, and we slept in the same room. There was no bedtime routine. There was, like, go to sleep, and we had a black and white television. And my parents used to turn it on ABC because I think that they thought, like, "Oh, there can't be that much bad stuff."

And it was like, I don't know, World News Tonight, just, like, watching about wars and stuff. And, you know, I watched 20/20, like, the old, like, Barbara Walters, Hugh Downs version, you know, every Friday night when I was a kid. Like, you know, I loved ABC. So, I mean, I, I did have, like, kind of an emotional tie to ABC.

There was also just, like, life stuff, like I needed better health insurance. I needed to ma- At that time, we had decided that my husband was gonna be full-time with our daughter, and to do that, I needed to make a certain amount of money to, like, pay for life. And it just seemed like the kind of adult thing to do.

And also, like, I had grown, like, fully feral working, like, not in an office, not with people, like, kind of in Ditmas Park in Brooklyn for the last several years. And also, I was really tied to the fact that, like, I like work. I will work now. Yeah. Husband take care of child. And I think that, um, there's, like, some identity stuff that I was kind of avoiding in taking that job because I was like, "Oh, great, I'll just do the same thing I always do, which is work."

And that's what I did.

[00:25:23] Jeff Umbro: How were podcasts treated within ABC? You, you, you have a comment in, in your book about, like, being uninvited to a meeting with the executive producers.

[00:25:32] Laura Mayer: Well, so I was the... I was an executive producer, but I was the only executive producer at the network that was not invited to the executive producer meeting.

So I think that they was a little, like, it was treated a little bit like, you know, not core to the business, which I've seen at other places I've worked, where podcasts is just this, like, department that they're doing 'cause it seems like there's a lot of heat there or ways to make more money, but it's not really differentiated.

And so, uh, y- but I will say that there was enthusiasm around it. Like, you know, ABC Podcasts had done The Dropout to, which was a show ironically about Theranos that came out before John Carreyrou's show about Theranos, that had done really well and had been optioned into this Hulu show. And so they had had some success, but I think that it was seen as sort of this, like- you know, this on-demand item, but it wasn't video.

And so what exactly, like, what, what kind of Function does the EP of this, you know, the, that, that, the EP of that particular part of the business isn't gonna be as rightly, I think from their perspective, respected as like the EP of Good Morning America. Like, that's a different, way harder job. Sure. EP in 2020, yep, I should not be in that meeting.

[00:27:00] Jeff Umbro: Yeah. Was there, like, a different bar for success? Like, the shows that you made at ABC, was the goal eventually to, like, put it on the silver screen?

[00:27:06] Laura Mayer: So I think that there was definitely this idea of taking the Dropout sort of formula of being like, "Oh, great, like, this limited run investigated narrative series did really well and then became this really acclaimed, well-watched Hulu series.

Let's try and do it again." But I think that there was some, like, cleanup that I did when I started where... You know, 'cause I think that there are... The, the, my boss at the time, who was, like, the best boss I ever had, you know, she would say herself, like, she came into the podcast EP role having no podcast experience, which, like, I've seen, like, that just is what happens at legacy places that do podcasts.

They'll just, like, promote someone, uh, who doesn't know podcasts, and they're like, "It's easier than what you did before." And usually- Yeah, go figure it out ... it's right, but it's- Yeah ... go figure it out, but it's something also totally different. And so there had been a lot of, like, sort of worthy na- narrative series created or shows that, like, I could see on paper why they were making them, but they weren't...

They were thinking more, I think, towards, like, what could be critically, like, awards, sort of in awards contention more than things that could be, like, have big audiences and do well with ad sales, et cetera, et cetera. And so my first couple of years there, I made, like, a lot of cases about, like, seeing where the current audience is now, like, making things to build that audience and expand it from there.

And so for the last year, I was there for three years, and at the beginning of my final year, I remember there was this, um, there was this meeting. It was, like, r- it was either on Christmas Eve or, like, near there. Wow. And it was, everyone was remote, uh, for this particular day, but it was, like, me, a VP, and an SVP.

And I'd been, like, saying, like, "We have to come up with a content strategy so that we can make things for a reason." And, uh, I think someone had asked me, like, or had said, like, "So what are we gonna do?" And I said, like, "Well, like, the biggest feed is the '2020' podcast, or is the '2020' reair. I don't know. I think we should just do true crime all the time."

And it was a little bit of a joke. Yeah. And then I think the, the person, like, the SVP or EVP or whoever was in the meeting was like, "True crime all the time," and then that became this sort of, like, branded thing within the, the network. And then that year We made, uh, nine new shows and, um, like, I think six of them were narratives.

Um, narrative- We, we, in

[00:29:43] Jeff Umbro: fact, just ran an, a tune-in campaign for one of the ABC shows, like-

[00:29:47] Laura Mayer: Yeah, that- ...

[00:29:48] Jeff Umbro: last week ...

[00:29:48] Laura Mayer: And they're still, they're still going, still going. Yeah. And it was really successful. Um, it also, like, was su- we weren't staffed for it. It was- Yeah ... um, you know, we, the, the beauty part of working, you know, within a legacy news org is that, like, they have this huge news gathering infrastructure.

And so the, these were largely stories that had already been reported out. And also, there was a little bit of a test case prior where we did this series that performed really well about the Idaho College murders, like, right when it had happened. Um, and that was towards the beginning of when I worked there.

So that, that last year was, like, when the, the listenership really grew, and then it became more of, like, a, a saleable series of shows, despite the fact that, like, the crime was- Yeah, like a

[00:30:34] Jeff Umbro: standalone business.

[00:30:36] Laura Mayer: Yes. Um, but I had also managed to, like, really, like, everyone was just so ground down to the ground, myself very much included, that I was just like, "I can't do this anymore."

[00:30:49] Jeff Umbro: Well, so I, I did wanna ask, though, like, your job at ABC was kind of exactly what you were seeking by making the podcast. But at the same time, it was act- it was, like, the exact kind of role that you were complaining about while making the podcast. I'm

[00:31:03] Laura Mayer: a corporate

[00:31:04] Jeff Umbro: mommy. Yeah. Yeah. So was the vision, like, you could, like, fix it from the inside or something?

[00:31:09] Laura Mayer: I think so. And I think to a certain degree I succeeded. But I think ultimately, like, I'm really grateful for the time I had at ABC, but I think I took that job more because I was scared about providing for my family than anything else, which is a great reason to take a job.

[00:31:24] Jeff Umbro: Dude, 100% justifiable.

[00:31:26] Laura Mayer: Yes.

[00:31:26] Jeff Umbro: And, and that's a job that 99 out of 100 people would love to have.

[00:31:30] Laura Mayer: Yeah. And I was very happy to have it. But, you know, again, like, you know, some things, uh, like, my daughter was diagnosed with autism, and my... I was really feeling h- it was hard not to see her as much as I felt like I needed to and to not be as, like, in on actually, like, bringing her to OT and speech and play therapy and that sort of thing.

And so that was, you know, ultimately, like, talk about things expanding, I think when you become a parent, where it's like I still in so many ways live to work, but, like, my ultimate boss is my child. Like, whatever I can do to benefit her, and, like, she's at that age where that sort of time with me, and she would just heckle me for working all the time, which I love so much.

She's so good at insulting me, and I like to think that that's because she knows me well. And figuring out the whole, like, New York City Department of Education, like special education and autism programs, like, that was something I needed to produce the ever-loving shit out of. And so that's a, a big reason why I, I left ABC to, you know, do something that was more flexible.

[00:32:40] Jeff Umbro: So I know this was, like, kind of a lifelong dream and was inspired by somebody reaching out to you, but why did you feel that Shameless Acquisition Target should be a book?

[00:32:51] Laura Mayer: I think I, y- this is so-- Like, my husband has an actual MFA, so he's a real writer, and if he listens to this, I'm so sorry, Danny. I do think that I have a strong voice in certain ways.

I feel like I have a, I f- I-

[00:33:05] Jeff Umbro: You absolutely have a strong voice. Yeah.

[00:33:08] Laura Mayer: Yes. Voice, voice intact, and it was really satisfying to be able to use it in Shameless Acquisition Target, and it really made me think like, "Oh, like, I've been writing so much in other people's voices for my entire career. Like, it would be great to actually do this thing I've always wanted to do, which was write my own book."

So I mean, I think that it's interesting 'cause the initial pitch for this book is not what it ended up being. So I definitely think that this version of the book is definitely a lot more fun to read and gets at, like, what I'm, uh, was probably more relevant for people to read than me being like, "This is how you become a middle manager, and fast."

Like, that's what, like, the initial book would have been.

[00:33:53] Jeff Umbro: H- how did the conversations go about the audiobook?

[00:33:56] Laura Mayer: In the ori- original contract, it said that I had to audition, and I was looking forward to blowing that audition out of the water. Like, I was gonna, like, produce the ever-loving shit out of my own audiobook audition, and I had time blocked off on my calendar due to do it, and then I got an email in October being like, "Okay, well, can you record it in March?"

Like, it was like they were like, "You can do it." And I was like- Yeah ... "Oh."

[00:34:19] Jeff Umbro: So You are now today the head of podcasts at Talkhouse. What, what is exciting to you about this latest chapter?

[00:34:28] Laura Mayer: It's cool to see how more short form audio items are being used in the podcast space. It's like kind of getting a front row seat to see this, like, attempted redefinition of podcasting.

[00:34:44] Jeff Umbro: So what makes for... What makes a show successful? Like, is there a DNA that comes as a part of, like, a podcast hit?

[00:34:51] Laura Mayer: I think that the... it really comes down to why does something need to be made right now, and what are your goals for the show? And then also, all the way to, like, you know, a big audience, you know, let's call it like a chat show with video, with a celebrity tied to it, et cetera, that becomes why does this show need to be made right now and why those people, you know?

And also, does anyone who's famous in the stack actually want to make a podcast? Because you can't produce enthusiasm. You can't make someone who's famous doing other stuff want to make a podcast, 'cause we will always seem not as cool as whatever else they could be doing. I think that it, it just really comes down to defining what success is and then being able to figure out if the market conditions and the audience is there to make it to, to get people to go there.

I'm a big believer that being like, "Oh, well, this show was a success because it won XYZ awards." That's, that's not a success to me. I mean, that's a success if your goal is to win awards. But I think to say that a show was a great thing to do just because it won awards, that to me is like the weirdest way that I've heard people consistently for the last decade answer those questions.

Yeah. 'Cause that's not the case with any other media either. Like, what's the influence? To me, like influence and impact outside of like, here's a statuette.

[00:36:21] Jeff Umbro: All right, one final question. What are, like, the juiciest tidbits in the book that podcast industry folks would, would want to know? Convince them to buy this thing.

[00:36:31] Laura Mayer: Well, there's one chapter called Don't Go To Couples Therapy With Your Business Partner.

[00:36:38] Jeff Umbro: Okay.

[00:36:38] Laura Mayer: There is a chapter about, like, if you were curious about sort of the initial podcast boom, there's a lot there. But I think that there is also, for, for a lot of people who are like rel- you know, newer in the space than me, AKA not dinosaur, I think that there's like sort of a, a

Some of the, some of the stuff that was in Shameless Acquisition Target about what the industry was doing then. There are some more proper names put to that.

[00:37:10] Jeff Umbro: Yeah.

[00:37:11] Laura Mayer: Also, you know, I think it's ... The, the book doesn't take itself too seriously, but it's also like there's some dish, and it's, it's kinda funny because I'm always the one, like, screwing up.

So, like, it's, it's, it's low pressure. It's ... It won't make you anxious to read it because you aren't the one finding yourself in various dumb, dumb situations from trying too hard in your life.

[00:37:35] Jeff Umbro: I don't think that they're dumb situations. It's ver- it's a great book. Everybody should buy it. And I, it's fu- you did have one line in there about when you were doing tape syncs as an intern at WNYC, and I, I was thinking about it.

I'm just like, anybody who's, like, just started podcasting in, like, 2020 is not gonna know what a tape sync is.

[00:37:54] Laura Mayer: No. You got to see so many people's bathrooms. Yeah. You don't get to see anyone's house anymore.

[00:38:00] Jeff Umbro: Yeah. You-

[00:38:01] Laura Mayer: And oh, God, the amount of bathrooms I saw from, like, people who are, like, famous to, like, not famous to, like, the richest...

I've seen so many tubs. Ugh, God, you're missing out, kids.

[00:38:12] Jeff Umbro: It, it is a shame though because that was the job that, like, most entry-level people had, right?

[00:38:17] Laura Mayer: Yeah, and you can make, like, 250 bucks in a, in a day if you, if you were doing it competently, and-

[00:38:23] Jeff Umbro: You can do that, transcribe tape, like, do some prep sheets, and, like, none of those are jobs anymore.

[00:38:30] Laura Mayer: It's a bummer. Like, I think it, it's way harder to break in. And I will say, my final hot take is I'm really looking forward to the period of time where everyone realizes, and I say this as someone who will be making a new podcast soon, like, w- we all shouldn't be making stuff, probably myself included.

Like, that can't be the only career path that the youth feel like they should do in media because I think that, that y- the best thing you can do is, is learn how to do things the right way and the wrong way on behalf of people who've been doing it for, for longer because you don't know what you should or shouldn't be doing in a lot of cases when you're young.

[00:39:09] Jeff Umbro: The number one career choice for youths, I don't know the age, but for the last, like, five years has been professional YouTuber. And with that, thank you, Laura, for joining us.

[00:39:19] Laura Mayer: Thank you so much, Jeff.

[00:39:26] Jeff Umbro: Thank you so much to Laura Mayer for joining us on this episode of Podcast Perspectives. You can find her online, mainly at LinkedIn, of course, being a try hard. You can purchase her book, Try Hard: A Cautionary Tale of Clocking In and Spinning Out wherever you get books. It is also available as an audiobook, which she narrates, and you can download her podcast, Shameless Acquisition Target.

[00:39:46] Laura Mayer: For more podcast-related news, info and takes, you can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff

[00:39:50] Jeff Umbro: Umbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of the Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing, marketing or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at podglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all socials at PodglomeratePods.

This episode was produced by myself, Jeff Umbro, and our production team, Chris Boniello, Jose Roman, and Nicholas Abuhamad. Thank you to our marketing team and a special thank you to Dan Christo