Podcast Nation Co-founders Clio de la Llave and Nadine Robinson on Growing Podcasts for Influencers

Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription software errors.

Jeff: This week on Podcast Perspectives.

Nadine: I think it's really about the talent creating a holistic brand for themselves, and a podcast being one portion of that brand across multiple channels, depending on the creator.

Jeff: Today I'm joined by two of the women who have quietly built one of the most interesting influencer driven podcast businesses in North America. Clio de la Llave and Nadine Robinson from Booje Media and Podcast Nation, Booje Media started as a digital and influencer agency, working with a diverse roster of big social creators and launching Podcast Nation in 2017, a network that produces and sells shows focused in the millennial female space.

We're going to talk to them about how they built the network, what they've learned selling across platforms, and what happens when one show suddenly becomes number one in the world. Welcome to the show, Clio and Nadine.

Nadine: Thank you for having us.

Clio: Yeah. Thanks so much. We're so excited to be here.

Jeff: I wanna start by asking you, Clio, if you can give kind of the short version of Booje's evolution. I guess start with like, what is Booje Media and like why does it exist? What were you trying to solve when you first started that company?

Clio: Um, so we started Booje Media. I guess it was, I was by myself, uh, 2009. I was like, we started, no. Yeah, so I actually had, so I went to school and I did an internship at a large ad agency. And um, I think I just realized like, I think you're either one of those people that thrives in a really big agency or you, for me it was just like, maybe not exactly what I thought, um, it would be.

So I didn't know what my future was gonna look like and I was like, I just wanna, uh, find something that I'm passionate about. And. You know, and like you said, I was looking for something that needed, I was like, oh, something that needs to be served. And I was just, you know, fresh outta school and I was pretty familiar with, Facebook back then was pretty new and just like social channels and just, I had noticed that, um,on the artist side of things like actors and musicians, they were using social media to, they noticed casting directors were paying attention at social media numbers because obviously if you have a bigger audience, then you have more of an audience to promote a film or a movie that you're doing too.

And uh, I think I had seen a couple brands on it as well, and, and it was Gary, Gary Vaynerchuk had said, “You need to follow where the eyeballs are.” And I just thought, I was like, this is, um, going to be something that like, it could be a really useful tool for brands and really saw that so social media could help amplify messages.

So that's how it, it first started. Like I remember all of our pitches going into these, uh, meetings were what social media is and why a brand could create, like how they could create their own Facebook page and what could be the benefit. Uh, so it really was really early days and from there it evolved over the last, um, I guess it's almost been 20 years and we, so it started just as helping companies with social media.Then we grew more into digital marketing. We really enjoyed the creative aspect of it. So creating content, uh, for brands to put obviously on their social media, uh, accounts, and then creating websites and, uh, got into event marketing and then that led into influencer marketing, uh, which was more so back then when there were bloggers, uh, that were blogging about like their travel experiences and what they like to shop.

And through that we got to work with, um, with a couple influencers. And then we really noticed the power of influencer marketing and we really, we, yeah, we honed in on that space. And over the last five years, I would say Booje Media turned more into a talent creative agency where we work with a lot of reality TV stars.

Because the background, we worked with a lot of people that came from The Bachelor/Bachelorette, that was how it all first started. Um, but you know, now it's expanded. Um, and it's just finding those brand deals. This. Yeah. Especially a talent agency where we, we really try to facilitate, um, brand deals for them and are really trying to differentiate ourselves from other agencies in terms of finding those brands that were a really good fit so that it would be a win-win across the board.

Like win for the Influencers, a win for the brand, uh, and a win for the audience that's following the influencers. And then, uh, Nadine and I, well. Nadine came in way early in the picture. Uh, one of the first employees at Booje Media, and we, uh, started a tech company, uh, like through, uh, I think it was, I can't even remember the year, but yeah.

Nadine: Side story.

Clio: Side story, that's a different thing. Started a tech, tech company, uh, that didn't work out and then we, we knew that we wanted to keep working together and, um, needing, had always had a big love for podcasts and introduced me to podcasts and with one of our influencers we had noticed like that there, that there was a space in the market for a different type of podcast agency.

It just seemed to be like you would go to a network and it was a one-size-fits-all. But we were coming from the agency side where, you know, you kind of can tailor for, you can tailor your, uh, proposal for what you need. And so. We started a podcast company, I'm sure we'll dive a little bit more into it, um, and a podcast agency, it was really organic. We started with one show. We worked with them on the influencer side. We started with one show and then it kind of, it grew from word of mouth. From there, we were testing it out, but I also think just because Nadine had such a love for the industry, it like, that obviously was magnetic, but it was something that I think was really exciting, uh, to both of us and.

Now that was seven years ago, which is crazy. I have a hard time answering this question 'cause there's so much to unpack, but I hope that made sense.

Jeff: No,

Clio: I don't know if that made sense.

Jeff: And I'm gonna, I'm gonna guide us on this journey, uh, because I, there are certain pieces that I want to touch on at Booje Media. You started kind of making Facebook pages and websites and doing some branding for, you know, uh, like brands and retailers and that kind of thing. You then moved on to the content creation side for these folks, uh, and eventually started helping them with influencer marketing, uh, which means that you were having people with big blogs and big social followings eventually. Who would go and like, stay at these hotels and post about these hotels and like tag them and use these products and that kind of thing.

And I mentioned that for anyone listening who is seeing, like, the audio version of this today. Uh, people like doing brand endorsements and like talking about it on their show tracking conversion rates like. If there was a version of this that happened previously in other forms of digital media, what does that look like today?

Excluding audio when you're working with like, uh, a big influencer in this space? Like, are people coming and saying like, you know, I want you to post our product on, on your Instagram story or your TikTok feed or something.

Clio: Yes, I would say that the space has changed so much, um, and we've no. Just a very big shift, I would say, in even just the last 12 months I think. And you know, we're trying to figure out as well, like it's hard to pinpoint exactly the reason why. I think part of the podcast growing and becoming so popular is part of it.

I think people were also craving events after COVID and wanting to go to events. So now you have these brands that are. Having to separate their budget a little bit more and, you know, have like some for podcasting, some for event marketing, uh, some for influencers. But I also think that the influencer space, influencer marketing, became so big and a little bit out of control.

There wasn't there, there wasn't a formula. You know how podcasting, there's a formula to how you're selling your ads and it really was the creator naming their price and being like, you're willing to pay or you're not. Um, but I think now with brands, uh, just becoming more savvy in the digital space, they're looking, they wanna be able to track their ROI.

Um, but to answer your question, uh, it is more like brands finding, I think that right content creator that really fits their brand ethos and having them create content for them. 'cause that's also another part of it, where it's like, now brands really wanna be able to use the content that the creator, um, creates and then, you know, put paid behind it, put it on, use it on their social or website, whatever that is.

Uh, so there's, you know, they're creating content and then obviously reaching their audience. But it's,

Jeff: So there’s different tiers that go into the contract of like what purchasing, like campaigns.

Clio: I would say before, and I don't know, and actually I think Nadine's a better person to answer what happens, what goes in terms of like the negotiation. Negotiation and contracts. But I do think that, like now, it's very rare.

I think it's rare to have a brand want to work with an influencer and not be able to use their content. I think that's a big piece of it where that wasn't the case before. Nadine, I don't know if you have anything to like to add to that.

Nadine: Yeah, I mean the influencer marketing, like the, what you're, what the brands actually have to pay, like out of pocket is so much more expensive than a podcast ad typically. And so brands are getting more savvy to Clio's point, and they're trying to figure out how they make these budgets work, like they still wanna work with influencers, but it's a really expensive medium. It's the, I think the, the rates have come down a bit because it's, it's much more competitive. Um, but the creators, I don't know, some of them that have been in this space a long time are having a hard time like coming to terms, I think with the reality of brands not willing to pay the same amount for like sometimes very little ROI. You know, there's brand awareness. And not to say that that's not valuable, but for a lot of brands, they can't just think about brand awareness.

Jeff: So I want to touch on like the ROI side of this in a minute, but, um, before we do that, I, I want to talk to you, Nadine, about like, what, seven years ago when you said like. Hey, Clio, we should talk about, you know, making a podcast network, what were you seeing that, that made you want to kind of go in that direction?

Nadine: Well, if I'm really honest, I just really love podcasts.

Jeff: That is a fantastic reason to do this.

Nadine: I mean, Clio and I had been working together for a while and I'd been in, you know, obviously in this social digital space. Um, but my passion in terms of just like my personal preference was podcasts. I loved the long form. I thought it was so much more intimate and thorough. And you know, social media can be very fleeting and there's a place for it.

It's not, no question about it, but the podcast is like, really the podcast space is what really spoke to me. So I, it just started as, as just being a lover of the content myself. Um, and then it was, I think a combination of that, of working with creators that had podcasts. We weren't working with them necessarily on the podcast at the time, but seeing uh, kind of a window into the industry. And at the time it was very, um, you know, really influenced by radio, the podcast industry. And we were coming at it at a different angle and we were coming at it very creator focused, like we understood what creators were trying to do. And so we thought we could approach it in a bit of a different way and, you know, build, help creators potentially build out more than just social or more than just podcasts.

But how does it all work together and how do brands work with creators more holistically?

Jeff: So who was the first, like, talent from Booje Media that you brought to the audio space?

Nadine: Our very first podcast was, Your Favorite Thing with Wells and Brandi. They actually had the show before, so we can't say we, they could have created the show before we were working with them, but they hadn't worked with the network. And it was just the two of them. And so we were really fortunate to be honest, that they took a chance on us and they're still with us today, so hopefully that means that our team has been doing a really good job with them.

Jeff: They must enjoy the work. What did that look like when you were approached 'em and said like, would you let us represent your show? Was there a pitch involved where, I mean, I assume you weren't just saying like, we can also sell your podcast ads. Like was it, was it some version of like, we would like to bundle your audio sales along with everything else?

Nadine: It wasn't necessarily bundling, and Clio actually think led the conversation because she had a close relationship, a closer relationship with them. And I do believe they shopped it. They talked to a few different networks at the time, and obviously we were very new, but I think what they were looking for is to not get lost in the shuffle of a big network.

Like they, they could have signed with, it was a good show they could have signed with one of the bigger networks. Um, but they were looking for, I think they were, they were savvy on their own and they were looking for a unique approach to, you know, having control over their show and work more hand in hand with, uh, whoever was representing 'em on the podcast space.

I don't know if, Clio, you remember the conversation?

Clio: I vaguely do, yes, but I think it's because it, there was that trust in terms of like, they saw how we really cared and, uh, took, yeah, how we cared on the talent side. And, um, we, it wasn't like we would just, they were a number, like we really took a very, um, hands-on approach with our talent. So I think it gave them the confidence that we would probably do the same thing on the podcast side.

Jeff: And knowing you all and who you work with and how you work, that turned out to be a good risk to take. 

What is the sweet spot for you all today in terms of your audience? In terms of just like categories and like what brands are buying and that kind of thing?

Nadine: I would say primarily, actually pretty much across the board is an audience of millennial females, mostly US listener based. Um, but that covers a lot of different content categories. So, uh, everything from pop culture, TV and film, uh, health and wellness. We just signed a big true crime show, so it varies.

Obviously, you know, that demographic, the millennial female. Listens to a lot of different content types of parenting. We've actually had, we've worked with a lot of doctors on like more health-based podcasts, so, but that would be our audience demo.

Jeff: Cool. And so what's the overlap with, uh, like clients at Booje Media and Podcast Nation? I, I know that it's, you know, basically the same company, but what I mean by that question is like, are you representing, like how many people who are Booje Media talent also have a podcast? And how many podcasters at Podcast Nation are also being wrapped by Booje Media?

Clio: It's actually not that many, um, I think especially too in the podcast space, I think because a lot of podcasters, like we are at the point where we, uh, we like to take on shows that have. Already been launched. So a lot of times if we're working with their agents and managers in order to make the deal happen.

But what we're really trying to do is really bring, and we talked about like, we talked about 360 campaigns earlier on when we got into the space, we were a bit naive or probably just didn't understand the space as well, and we thought there'd be a lot more opportunity to cross sell between podcast ads and social media ads, but it's something that I think it's just taken a while for brands to think about and adopt just because the way that it's structured internally.

But we, um, we do try, like, we would like to see more of that where we can do more social integrations with podcast advertising, even if, even if it's through the, their podcast, social media. And then we don't have that many, uh, people on the talent side that have a podcast, but we've, um, but like there are a few and there have have been a few throughout, but it's really, really nice understanding what goes into both sides of it.

And I think, like Nadine said, really understanding, uh, or coming at it from a content creator perspective as well allows us to structure our deals on the podcast space in a way that I think is beneficial to creators. And, you know, like this is something that they're, it's like their baby, right? Like they're creating and we wanna make sure that, that they, um, get a fair terms, um, on the creator side.

Nadine: Kinda the sweet spot for us right now is, is to Clio's point, understanding the social creator side outside of the podcast so that we can work with creators more, even if we don't represent them exclusively, is like we can, you know, we know how to work with their management or their agent to, you know, pitch these larger campaigns.

Because we understand the cross channel and the social media contracts tend to be much more thorough and extensive than, you know, a podcast IO. IO’s are getting more complicated, um, than when we first entered the space. But I would say there's a lot more to watch out for on the social side. So I think if you don't have that knowledge coming in as well as the knowledge of how to execute, then it's, it would be tough, tougher to sell.

Jeff: Yeah. For anyone listening who hasn't seen a podcast IO recently, which stands for “insertion order,”  the terms and conditions on these documents is typically like, between five and 10 bullets which, you know, on a standard contract is, is kind of a joke..

Clio: Yeah.

Nadine: Yes, on the social side It's, like, not uncommon to have like a 20 page contract with like very dense legal language to sift through.

Jeff: And that, that 5 or 10 bullet, you know, IO could be worth like $50,000, which is nuts. Yeah, so.

Clio: We're not saying it needs to change or anything.

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: No, I know.

Clio: That's great.

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: Simple.

Clio: That's great. To the point.

Jeff: So very direct, we all trust each other. So when you, we, we touched on this a couple times just now, but are you selling ads across podcast and social? It sounds like “sometimes” is the answer.

And, and when you are like, what does that typically look like? Is it two different IO’s or are you just combining them all?

Nadine: No, typically it's, we try to put everything in one contract or or IO a lot of the times where we're seeing success with selling cross channel is more working with brands directly as opposed to the agencies on, on either side, like the audio agencies or the social media agencies. I think those, those, um, are typically, you know, less set up for selling, you know, cross channel or sorry, buying cross channel. Um, so I would say the brand is…

Jeff: And Shopify for example, might have like an audio agency and a social agency who like will never talk to one another.

Nadine: Yes, exactly.

Clio: Yeah.

Nadine: They have no who each other are or what each other is doing.

Clio: Yeah, very siloed.

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense and you know, if you can get in touch with the brands directly, they're usually a lot more open and creative, um, in terms of how to work with a creator. And so, you know, we obviously have where our standard, um, you know, contracts that we can, we can template if they don't have one.

But it's usually, usually the same.

Jeff: What is the price difference between like, uh, an ad buy on a podcast versus an ad buy on, like Instagram or something? In terms of like CPM, uh, or, uh, well, we'll start there. Like what's the CPM difference?

Nadine: You know what's crazy is there's not really a CPM in in the social side. It's honestly, it's. It can be calculated at any which way, but it's usually working really closely with the creator of like, what do they value their, use, their likeness and their social channels at? Like, it's a lot of what they're comfortable with.

There's not a straight calculation like there is in the podcast side, which is why it can be challenging to sell if you know, you're used to selling on podcast ads and those are, you know, typically very formulaic and very simple. Um, the social side is, we call it the wild, wild west. It's just. It's all over the map, but I would say typically it's much more cost effective to buy podcast ads.

Jeff: Could you give me an example? Like if I'm a brand and I want to come and buy like five Instagram posts and, you know, a hundred thousand impressions on the podcast, like, what would that look like? And, and you can make up the pricing on the, on the, uh, social, but something that's like an example.

Clio: I would say like, okay, this is, let's see if this, this ends up being an answer we can use, but, okay. So I think that like, oh, okay. Like if you were to do five, five podcasts on a very, like, on a, um, podcast that has about like 150,000 downloads, let's say it costs you, five, so that would be 25,000 or, or, or, yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry.

2,500 per, so yeah, let, let's say it's 4 grand. That creator, let's say they have about 500,000 to a million, uh, Instagram followers. Then one Instagram collaboration would probably be around $20,000. So very different, but.

Jeff: So you can get five episodes for the same price as one collab.

Nadine: Yeah, it just depends on the size.

Clio: But I also think it's interesting because like when you do a collaboration on social, it's obviously different because usually that creator won't have more than one for that day or like two days. Like, you know, they, they like to space it out. They don't do as many. Whereas like you have like a podcast ad on an episode and there’s gonne be five ads.

So, it's like very different. Um, and then obviously then they have to then come up with a creative concept and film it and they want it to perform well. So it takes the creator a lot more time, I would say, to create that. And then now they have, the brand now has an asset that they can use, whereas like, they're not going to use a podcast ad as an asset really on anything.

Um, so it's, it is a lot more expensive, but it's also, it's just so hard, like they're just not apples to apples.

Jeff: Yeah. And, and you know, we're assuming that they do a good job with all of this and everything, but, I really want to ask about like, you know, the various conversion rates that you're seeing and you know, cost per click and all this stuff. But I know that the answer is just gonna be like, it depends on 500 different variables.

Clio: Yeah. And I will say that, so now brands, like when we first started doing influencer marketing, they would look at followers. That really was the benchmark. And now, like, brands are really looking at your engagement, uh, the, the amount of comments, the amount of people that are liking it, and the ratio, the engagement ratio, like, what are your average likes per post versus how many followers you have.

So they are getting more granular and they wanna see, they, you know, they obviously wanna see location and demographic, whereas back in the day, like it was really just followers was the metric that they were looking at when pricing it out. So that's changed a lot, obviously.

Jeff: Yeah, and probably for the better.

Clio: Yeah.

Jeff: Not necessarily for every individual creator, but overall.

Nadine: Yes.

Clio: Yeah.

Jeff: When it comes to reporting, like at the end of this, what are you sending the brands after they purchase one of these, like, 360 campaigns? Are they asking for any kind of, like, attribution tracking?

Nadine: That really depends. It's usually in the contract, very specifically what they require. Some of them are using third party platforms where they can see a lot more detail. And then other ones, which, you know, to be honest, it gets a bit annoying for the creators because they have to sign up for all these platforms to get access to these posts. Then sometimes it's screenshots of like, you know, how many views, how many clicks, how many likes, like all the, the typical, uh, if we're thinking about Instagram, um, the typical data points. Um, but brands are, you know, becoming much more focused on the ROI as we were saying. So these third point platforms are definitely becoming more popular for brands to use.

Jeff: Well, thank you. That was quite the education and, and I guarantee you that 90% of the people who are listening to this have not thought about any of what you just talked about for more than 10 minutes. 

You're dealing with people who have probably been selling these kinds of campaigns for years, and now they're coming into the podcast space, and they're seeing something that's like a lot more, as you said, Nadine, formulaic and like, in a lot of ways that's great and in a lot of ways that's terrible, I'm sure. Like, do these big creators from other platforms enjoy working in the podcast space, when it comes to the ad side, or do they hate it?

Nadine: It's funny you ask that because it's been something that we've definitely run into working with creators who have been really successful on social, not understanding that they can't charge the same amount for like their brand new podcast that doesn't have a big audience yet because brand, it doesn't make sense for brands to pay a hundred cpm, they're not going to do that. They're gonna pay, you know, maybe for a simulcast, maybe 35, which is a great rate. But that's, that's pretty much the ceiling that we're seeing right now. Um, so they're having a hard time with it, to be honest, because they're used to valuing their voice and their likeness at a certain rate. And the reality is, is that's not how podcast ads are sold.

Jeff: Is it helpful for them to be able to, for, for you guys to talk to these brands and say that they have these big social audiences and like are, are the creators willing to throw in a social post or something or is it typically just like very siloed still?

Nadine: For the brands, I would say. Typically we don't get anywhere in terms of getting like added value for an Instagram story. Like the creators don't give that away. The creators that, you know, have a, that come from that space, that have a big following, that are used to making, you know, their living through their social, they're not going to typically, they're not gonna give that away for free. And so I think brands, um, you know, some brands are obviously more respectful of that or understanding of that than other brands, but we, we kind of steer away from it. We typically, unless we have been, you know, had an explicit conversation and we know creators are open to that and they're just trying to get going. Sometimes they can be, it really depends on the person. Um, but I would say, yeah, it's, it's more of a, more of a roadblock I would say.

Clio: Something that's interesting, like that's an interesting call out, to follow that topic is that we have noticed, because we've now seen a lot of creators that have big social followings start podcasts, and we've really seen that there isn't a very direct correlation whether with, uh, social media followers and podcast listeners.

And so of course it helps if you have a big brand on social and if you have a very loyal following. But I think it just much more depends on your podcast content in a niche and finding that, is your audience interested in that, uh, specific topic? And also, are they even podcast listeners?

Now it's expanded, but uh, there isn't a direct correlation. We can't say, oh, because you have 3 million followers, you're gonna have a successful podcast.

Jeff: We deal with that constantly and that also applies for, for many of our shows, not all. When it comes to RSS shows moving to YouTube and vice versa. So, I mean, you all work with some big YouTube creators and, and we've talked a little bit about simulcast. How are you feeling about that when it comes to the sales side?

Are you finding that, like a lot of the, like, ad agencies are willing to pay the same kind of CPM for a YouTube spot as well as they would for, like, an audio spot?

Nadine: Yeah, typically we see the pay a bit better of a CPM for a simulcast than, you know, straight audio, but they're getting a, you know, proper baked-in spot at this point. You know, if this, if, if assuming the show's on YouTube, um, so you know, they're getting a baked-in video ad, um, along with the audio, so we're seeing that the simulcast rates are, are, are typically higher than audio.

Jeff: That's great. Are you doing video on Spotify?

Nadine: That's a big question.

Clio: Yeah,

Nadine: Yes. Uh, we…

Clio: You had to bring that up, didn't you?

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: Uh, that's a long answer.

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: Yeah.

Jeff: This is a show about podcasting.

Nadine: We are in the process with the changes that Spotify made, uh, recently in terms of being able to serve ads, um, dynamically. A lot of our shows we do sell, you know, cross catalog dynamic ads, and to have completely cut out the Spotify listeners out of dynamic sales in the past was not a, typically not a good idea for our shows.

So we were staying far away from Spotify video, but now obviously with the, the recent changes we're, we're coming back.

Jeff: Cool. I love that. Did you have any shows that opted in when they were, when it was just SPP?

Nadine: We had some that had worked independently before they worked with us and had opted in. And then when they came to us for ad sales, you know, we kind of did a bit of a calculation and said, okay, we're, we're gonna be, we're not gonna be able to monetize in the same way…

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: …if you are still on Spotify video. So…

Jeff: Got it.

Nadine: …we had some shows that choose to came, to come off of it.

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: Um, and now we're helping people get back on it, which is a bit of a pain, but.

Jeff: The crux of the question was, I was curious if you were baking video ads into the Spotify side?

Nadine: Oh! 

Jeff: Like as you are doing on YouTube, um, because Spotify at one point was, was basically encouraging people to do that.

Nadine: Yeah. We, I think we may have done, we might've done it a few times here and there, but we were typically getting people off Spotify video until recently.

Jeff: Jury's still out for me on like, everything video, but, uh, I am very encouraged by everything that I'm seeing and, uh, we could talk all day about everything with Spotify and YouTube versus everything else.

Nadine: The flip side of, you know, a higher CPM for video ads is, it is like four to five times more work to produce a video podcast.

Jeff: Yeah.

Nadine: So, you know, take it with a grain of salt. Sure, you can make a higher, maybe a higher ad rate for being on video, but that doesn't mean it's the right decision.

Clio: I was gonna say, Jeff, and I'll, I'll send you, um, it was a newsletter, but it was interesting because we've obviously been following video and understand like, you know, we've seen the data that there's still a lot more audio listeners and that video, like Nadine said, is 4 or 5 times more expensive to create.

So we always recommend podcasters to just start audio first, test it out, and then go from there. Um, but it was really interesting because this new study shows that most new audio, uh, most new podcast listeners are coming from video. 

Jeff: Yeah.

Clio: It was pretty high numbers.

Jeff: I believe that 100%. So a RSS um, listeners are very different people than YouTube viewers. And the RSS listeners have a consumption rate that's like four to five times higher per episode than like a YouTube viewer. Um, in part because the viewing habits of, of like a YouTube viewer is somebody who's typically finding this based on like what the algorithm feeds them, um, which just inherently has like a much higher skip rate. And, uh, so there's a lot of interesting items there where it's like the quality of the listener goes down significantly. But if you're getting a hundred times as many listeners, like, do you care? And so that's, that's the big question. Uh, and, and that's the reason I think that for me, the jury's still out because, um, I guess the, the more detailed version of that answer is like, it really depends on who the person is and what kind of show is, is trying to post with video.

Nadine: Yeah, I don't think video is for every show by any stretch, and I think you have to think about who you're trying to reach too. Um, you know, if you're trying to reach a younger audience and you have a talk show style podcast, you probably really wanna think about video. If you're trying to reach an older audience and there's maybe more of a narrative to your podcast, then I'd say lean into audio.

Jeff: Yeah, I want to spend a few minutes talking about a couple moments that, from my vantage point. have been kind of like fulcrum points for Podcast Nation, uh, one of them being Telepathy Tapes. Do you guys wanna talk a little bit about, um, kind of how that partnership came to be and, uh, a little bit about, like, what the show's about and why it kind of hit the cultural zeitgeist the way that it did?

Nadine: Yeah, so we've been working with, um, Telepathy Tapes for, uh, just about a year now. We started talking to them in January of last year, and I think we officially, uh, signed them on in February.

Clio: It really was like a, we hit the ground running that year. Like, you know when you start at the beginning of a year like that and you're like, it just like motivates you and you get so excited.

Nadine: I think it was the first day back from like the winter holidays essentially, that we got an email pitching the show to us and they had gone viral. Actually, our sales director, Jess, she had sent me the podcast. She's the first one who showed me the podcast. Obviously it was kind of everywhere at that point, but she's the first one who had sent it to me in the fall saying, you, you have to listen to this podcast and I'm not gonna tell you what it's about, but you have to listen to it. And I have an autistic son, so I think that's why she was thinking that I would be, you know, especially interested in this content. But um, yeah, essentially I think we really just connected with Kai, the host and her team, um, we really understand the content and her mission and what she was trying to achieve and she, I think, was just like one of those people that, you know, really goes on like trust and gut, which worked in our favor in that situation. I mean, we know we work hard and we can, you know, execute as well. Um, but I think it was just kind of like the perfect match.

Jeff: Yeah well, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the first show that you all worked on that was serialized, right?

Nadine: Yes. Yeah.

Jeff: And so you're working on something that, uh, A) first time that it's that format, B) It was, I think it dethroned Joe Rogan as the number one podcast for like two weeks, right?

Nadine: Yes.

Jeff: So it’s like literally everywhere.

Clio: Crazy.

Nadine: It was literally everywhere.

Jeff: And often like, you know, uh, because people think that it's, um, like controversial, but uh, you know, and it's presumably selling tons and tons of ads.

So, was there any, like, kind of moments where you looked at that show and said like, this is incredible and it's doing really amazing stuff for our business or we have to learn how to do X, Y, and Z, because like there's a lot of new muscles there.

Nadine: Yeah. You know what? I have to say, it actually went decently smoothly. Like, you know, we were able to bring advertisers really quickly, um, to the show. It didn't, uh, they were a viral hit out of nowhere. So they weren't working with anyone before us. They weren't making any ad dollars I think before they, I think there was a little bit at programmatic? I almost, I wanna say there, there might not have even even been programmatic when they first hit it. And so I think, you know, Jess on our team who, uh, was like a huge fan of the show. I think it was her favorite podcast she'd ever listened to.

She was so dedicated to helping them, as, you know, as a business, as like a mission. Um, And so it went like, I would say it actually went, like, fairly smoothly. There wasn't, um, obviously it's a ton of work, but it, I wouldn't say we hit any major roadblocks…

Jeff: Yeah, of course.

Nadine: …that, um, inhibited our ability to sell the show. And we work with them on their social too so they were really looking for expertise in the social space, which played in our favor, um, because we were really able to, um, to help them, like, build that channel, build their Instagram channel and their, their social presence as well?

Jeff: Did that lead to other opportunities for you all? Um, cause from my vantage point, like there was a lot of news stories about like how successfully you, you pulled off this campaign.

Nadine: Yeah, it's, I would say yes. I mean, we're, at the end of the day, we're a small shop. Um, there's much bigger, uh, podcast companies out there than, than we are. Um, but I think that we were able to prove that that worked in our favor for the show because we could put so much attention and care into facilitating the best possible ad campaigns and monetization strategy for them.

And so I think we were able to prove ourselves that we can, even though we're small, we can work really effectively.

Jeff: Well, what advice do you have for somebody trying to get into the influencer, creator or podcast space in 2026?

Clio: The first thing that comes to mind for me is finding your niche, even like the influencer space. Even like, yes, everyone has like, our, our tagline is like, not everyone needs a podcast. And, um, it's like, I would say that that's actually become even more true in the influencer space. Like, it is so crowded. So if there isn't something where you can hone in on and that you can't bring value at, then I would reconsider. Like, I just really like what, like what's a niche area that you can get into? Are you really passionate about it and can you provide value? I would say those are the three questions that you should ask yourself. But it's also, I would also say in terms of a lot of people going into the influencer space, it's a lot harder to make money.

So I would also, uh, consider that if you're going into it just to make money, you might wanna reconsider that as well.

Nadine: Yeah, I agree. I would say hopefully you're going into it with, first of all, a, I don't love the word passion, but essentially a passion for whatever it is, the content that you're creating. Because if you don't have that, it's going to, it's a, it is a very long road, um, either on the influencer or the podcast space.

It is a ton of work. It looks simple from the outside. It is far from simple or straightforward. There's no clear roadmap. And so you, it's number one imperative that you are incredibly excited and passionate about what you're creating.

Jeff: I could not agree more. Uh. I, I cannot tell you how frustrated I get when, when the answer to “What are your goals?” is “to make money.” Thank you both so much for joining us on this episode. This was awesome. Uh, I think all of our listeners are gonna get quite a bit out of it, and we'll definitely do this again soon.

Nadine: Thank you, Jeff.

Clio: We have to, you have to come on our podcast. Thanks so much, Jeff. This is so fun.

Jeff: Thank you so much to Clio de la Llave and Nadine Robinson from Booje Media and Podcast Nation for joining us on this week's episode of Podcast Perspectives. You can find them online at podcastnation.co or on LinkedIn by searching their names.

For more podcast related news info and takes you can follow me on LinkedIn at Jeff Umbro. 

Podcast Perspectives is a production of the Podglomerate. If you're looking for help producing marketing or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at podglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all socials @podglomeratepods. 

This episode was produced by myself, Jeff Umbro, Chris Boniello, and José Roman. Thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Erin Weiss, and Sheeba Joseph, and a special thank you to Dan Christo.